Addons - in a very wide sense

[nominesine]

I'm not an addon maker, nor do I intend to become one. But I am an avid addon user and this topic is merely a wish list to all the skilled addon makers out there. The rather long and tedious post contains a few thoughts I've been toying with for the past couple of years. Feel free to comment on them.

What I would like to see in ArmA 2 is small and user friendly addon packs. Get me right: I lowed BAS/Tonal, ECP, FDF, SFP, CSLA and several other mega mods when they were released for OFP. But something changed with the arrival of Armed Assault. A lot of mega mods were started, but never finished. I think that the ACE mod and CWR are good examples of what I mean. The consequence was that they never recieved the attention they deserved from the community. Both were enjoyable, but maybe a bit too ambitious for their own good.

Therefore I would like to see smaller mod packs for ArmA 2 rather than unfinished WIP-mods, however interesting they may seem in screenshots and promotion videos. If I were to make a mod for my own countrys national army, I would then start out with a small detachment of troops. Maybe nothing more than the soldiers required to put a regular rifle squad in the field, combined with one armoured vehicle, a car and maybe a helicopter.

By releasing such smaller mod packs, and finsihing them, the community would have something to play with. Instead of something to wait for, wich often seems to be the case with the mega mods nowadays. If the interest grows, other addon packs may follow and the mega mod will arrive in time anyway.

ArmA 2 offers so many possibilities to mission makers, without the need to resort to advanced addons; that I think it would be beneficial to the whole community, if more talented addon makers made an effort to produce smaller addons.

From my point of view a simple reskin of an existig soldier model is often equally good as a competely new model. This is very similar to how the community worked back in the early OFP days. A lot of good addons were produced - as well as used by mission makers.

Severl good mods/addons also made their way intop ArmA, of course. The ACE mod looked promising until it went into hiatus with version 1.09. The extended eventHandlers was a fabulous project, just as JAM was a fantastic addition to OFP back in 2003. These kind of standardization mods will always be benificial to the community. But only truly so if there are also working addons that are actually being used to produce missions for other community members to play with.

I'll end this long rant here, before I exeed the maximum number of keystrokes allowed in one post. Please share yopur thoughts on the subject if you find the time.

NOTE: This post does not intend to critisize any existing mod/addonmaker. All the mods that are mentioned as examples above have been referred to because they are among my personal favourites.

[kju]

Good post and agreed.

What most modders are not well aware of the technical side of this behavior.
I believe this as most of this group of people did not study an IT degree at uni.

Modularity and least coupling are two keys here. Not only technical yet also
organizational wise.

For some pointers:

• CBA - Community Base Addons
• Good design - separate an addon in multiple PBOs
• PBO naming thoughts

 

[h-]

There are several threads of logical thought you know (some more, some less), to some the 'IT pro' way might be a tad confusing..
And then there's of course women's logic, but that can't be applied anywhere really..  


Some mods just won't work or lose their point if they are released in some smaller chunks of the whole.
For example a WW2 era mod; even more so one that is focused on something very specific, releasing it in some couple of soldiers + couple of vehicles way would be useless because no-one would have any use for them, I don't see how for example snow camoed soldiers and vehicles would work in Chernarus..
So then you would need to release an island with those soldiers and vehicles and whoops, no more a smaller chunk, not in filesize nor in workload.

But for some mods, especially for those that add/modify gameplay features of the original stuff rather than aim to full conversion to something specific the smaller bits idea works perfectly.

[kju]

You are reading things into it.  
If you study a degree, people will teach you this. If not, you may not be aware of it and you
may not have thought about the consequences or possible alternative designs.
Demonstrated by practice by the OFP and A1 community all along.  

Single addons can still be delivered as a MOD.
A MOD is a mere collection of content adapted to work well as a pack.
Of course it also sets a base for mission designers to work on and making it easy for players to play.

At the same time download tool like Yoma Addon Snyc do the job as good and do not have the
restrictive aspect of MODs ruling single addons out.

In other words IMHO people should better work on technical compatibility and make use of advanced
build and release tools instead of splitting the player base.

Of course you can play with any unit on Chernarus. By your reasoning you rule out work like the Lego
MOD. Many people are interested in gameplay and not only realism.

There is no problem at all to have a wwII tank in the same mission as modern equipment.
Instead it will add an interesting twist to the specific gameplay scenario.

Unrealistic? Not fitting? Just check what old weaponry is even used today, if you have to.  

One question h- if I may:  Why are you talking of MODs (only). Does this not apply to addon packs?

[h-]

Why are you talking of MODs (only)

I'm working in a large mod, and will be in Arma2 in due time.

And I started to talk about big mods because of nominesines post: "..I would like to see smaller mod packs for ArmA 2..".
So just sharing my point of view on the large mod -> smaller mod.

Does this not apply to addon packs?

Of course. And in that setting doing it in bits and according to common standard is completely reasonable idea.

I never disagreed that this talked about idea is a bad thing, I just don't see much reason in releasing some total conversion type of large mod in small pieces because it completely misses the point of it all..
And with bits/pieces I mean that a total conversion type of mod would be released in small addon packs instead of large full mod.

By your reasoning you rule out work like the Lego MOD

How?
If I don't happen to find something usable personally how does that rule anyone's work out?

For the record the Lego mod was brilliant, perfect example of how incredibly versatile these BIS products are.
However, even if something is brilliantly done and very unique that still doesn't mean I personally have to use it..

In other words IMHO people should better work on technical compatibility and make use of advanced build and release tools instead of splitting the player base.

Somehow I got the feeling that you for some reason think I'm attacking the CBA?

I'm only talking from point of view of the mod I work in, I don't in any way criticize CBA, it sounds to be very good and I'm guessing it will be very widely used and welcomed.
Just remember to document it like you would be trying to teach it to a 3-year-old..  

[Gnat]

My take on what nominesine is saying is the difference between the RACS Mod and the I44 Mod as examples.

RACS Mod
- A "Pack" of different addons
- Making a Theme
- Released in small chunks, regulaly updated.

I44 Mod
- A Theme pack
- Released all at 1 time


Positive of RACS Mod
- Big following
- Lots of publicity, eventually
- Lots of addons drip feed into community
Negetive
- No big "wow" factor sustained
- Harder to do missions or campaiges to suit
- Lots of ongoing community "Feedback" to deal with (revision hell)

Positive of I44 Mod
- A BIG WOW factor once released
- Easier to good missions and campaiges to suit
- Much more "complete" feel to the Mod
Negetive
- Hard to maintain "wow" factor before release with just screenshots
- Harder to instantly produce an community following
- Hard to know when to stop moding and release. When is enough, enough.
- Taking too long turns you into a community Target

[kju]

h- please excuse me if it sounded offensive. That was not the intention.
That said nothing bad about a real discussion to let anyone get new insights.  

First of language / communication is 80% misunderstood.  

For example a WW2 era mod; even more so one that is focused on something very specific, releasing it in some couple of soldiers + couple of vehicles way would be useless because no-one would have any use for them, I don't see how for example snow camoed soldiers and vehicles would work in Chernarus..

This gave me the impression that you said you need a full and coherent theme that it makes sense.

it completely misses the point of it all

I didn't question your intention. The question was asked to make your understanding more clear.
Gnat listed a few points. Getting feedback earlier is a huge plus if you don't go the long wait one
big release way. I've seen first hand many great people loose the battle, getting disillusioned and
leaving the MOD or scene.

I strongly believe you can still achieve the complete MOD feeling, even with iterative dev and
multiple releases. In the end it is about presentation, focus and people.
At least from the distance my understanding is that I44 Mod has a bigger group of people,
while RACS was more a small team effort?

Anyway at least in-house you can always go the iterative dev and multiple releases road.
Along with playing and enjoying your own work its a key to success and "survive" in my view.

 


PS: CBA is "completely" unrelated to this, is it not?

So no, this is not my intention. Never will. The link was about ppl teaming up and offering their
work in a very open way for others to use to speed up dev and reduce effort.

Also this is not about standard - or a community standard. It is about discussing sensible dev,
management and release strategies for modding (ArmA II).  

[DeanosBeano]

Hell of alot of talk about Mods addons and conversions recently.

 total conversion = way to big for me as a loner but i consider it to be what these usually re-define right back to the core and will effect anyother addon played alongside them (not always) OFPR was to ofpcwc.

 Mod = a group of addons that allow for a change in the already defined parameters and normaly allow default units to be played along side.

Addon = a single entity on its own or a part of a MOD or conversion .

 thats my take on what those mean, if people want to release a mod in steps then they simply have to
 retain the

Code: [Select]

class CfgVehicleClasses
{
class dbo_lMod
{
displayName = "dbo_mod";
};
};
 In every released pbo , its no big deal but people dont do it because i guess they evolve with each new addon and there usually working alone and dont set out to produce a big package.
 Take myself for example , I turn on mypc and start up whichever BIS game and walk around the island i get ideas and then try to put that idea into a reality, i release videos to get feedback because my soul purpose was to prove to myself " hey i reckon i could do that" and once i have done it, i move on. by releasing videos you get a sense of whether something is going to enhance Gameplay (modders o this because 90% dont play and rely on the community for gameplay practicalities and ideas).
 People call me a selfish teasing bastard because i dont release stuff , what they dont realise is that i release everything that i feel is worthy of releasing , things that are stable and will enhance gameplay ,  be it for fun or real mission enhancing.In addition people PM me or write me elsewhere for code to reproduce etc , only last month someone sent me a config on MSn when it loaded the little line came up OPEN config (1456) ,thats alot of times people have asked for help and alot of time away from my own addons and thats just MSN .
 In essence  i am trying to say people do things for different reasons and this is my reason for messing with BIS games , i work almost alone for my own little bit of enjoyment and if someone asks i help them, i would never consider releasing a MOD or conversion because i know i would get Bred and it would waste my time and everyone elses.

  Since ofp People like myself are rare everything is now Linear and almost whiplashed into boundaries , parameters were for mission makers in OFP not addonmakers and to be honest i dont like where its going , i will compare it to "community Expansion packs " and although i think its fantastic for a Dev house working on its own conversion, i think it kills Free thinking in the wider community.

 more worrying is statements like this i saw earlier
"Rp-mods is a Roleplaying Mod that OWN the offical Sahrani Life Mission"
 seems people Own things now , i would like to backward engineer that mission and its scripts and see how much of it originates from ideas and scripts gone by. its crazy things like this just kill open games like this .


 

[nominesine]

My take on what nominesine is saying... etc

You identifyed the dilemma I was trying to pinpoint. The "wow factor" vs. "many users" was very good summary of my thoughts.

[kju]

ArmA2 on a snow island. 

[DeanosBeano]

  yes those normalmaps in arma2 are very much like snow also the vehicles too look very winter if you port without textures  and of course NIM weather slots right into Arma2 nicely without much hassle.
 
 on top of that with this new "Camo" winter units are now just a case of new texture , Bis have made it very simple for the Winter people i hope to see alot of it .

 

[h-]

First of language / communication is 80% misunderstood.

So true, and I think us both have exceptionally good job in misunderstanding each other. 


Aanyways,

This gave me the impression that you said you need a full and coherent theme that it makes sense.

If I could have explained this in my own language, and in a bar I could probably have made more sense..

I don't need a full and coherent theme, but I do like to have some sort of reasonable context for it to be immersive.

Let's say a mod is about re-creating certain frontline area of a short war between two neighboring nations, not in insanely meticulously in every detail but providing quite detailed assets (both in usage and in 'effect') and terrain of that area, and of that time.
To me that sort of strict setting is not fullfilling at all to be released as some out of context here-and-there packs because for a total conversion mod to work the context has to be intact.
It may not be so for the people using it but it may very well be for the creators of it (I can only speak for myself of course).
And knowing people they would just get frustrated and constant "Any updates?"; "When you're going to release this and that?" bantering if they won't get at least some sort of playable 'cluster' to keep them occupied for a while.
Depending of course that the setting is familiar to them and they know what was used in it in real life.

For things like Project RACS the way they do things fits very nicely.
I don't recall how exactly they started but as the theme is already provided by the core game it's much more reasonable to release one or two addons at a time because the context is already there, you're just adding to it.
It's like working in a metal shop and every now and then getting a new tool to f around with.

I've seen first hand many great people loose the battle, getting disillusioned and
leaving the MOD or scene.

This has also to do with the persons themselves, not with their release strategy alone.

The mod should as a group at first hold a pow-wow and decide how they are going to do things.
The persons involved should know themselves well enough to make the decisions whether they can bear the pressures that come with the job.
Of course changing the course of action is never too late, and can even be healthy if general 'disheartening' is detected..

But I guess it's already established that I don't have anything against any 'releasing in bits' stuff, IMO it's up to the people themselves to decide how they do things.. So I'm just repeating myself here 

total conversion = .....

That's actually pretty much the same way I would describe the terms, even if I use the word 'mod' a bit more loosely in this thread.

Although, if you really want to split hairs, a total conversion is also a collection of singular addons.
Of course it is different from a addon pack mod because the singular addons depend on each other, or may share one single config or something.

After all, the whole game is kinda just a collection of AddOns for some core engine.

Take myself for example ...

Valid points there..

If there exists a developement stan.. ehm.. strategy all the better, but I don't think should be expected that everyone would follow it. After all it's not like it's a necessity to make things work.

ArmA2 on a snow island.

Off-topic, shame on you.. 

[nominesine]

Total Conversion = way to big for me as a loner but i consider it to be what these usually re-define right back to the core and will effect anyother addon played alongside them (not always) OFPR was to ofpcwc.

Mod = a group of addons that allow for a change in the already defined parameters and normaly allow default units to be played along side.

Addon = A single entity... etc...

A brilliant definition. And what I would like to see is Addons, that will eventually turn into Mods and stay there. Not WIP ideas that turn into... BETA addons (?!?)Total conversions are nice. But they seldom beats the vanilla game IMHO.

[DeanosBeano]

 well its like _h said everything is compilation of an addon really, but what categorises it is the depth of inheritance , some will inherit right back to _xcore  some will inherit from further down _xweapon ,_xunit etc. sound modifications are the same some change everysound some change specific vehicles weapons etc.
 The problem i have really is that nobody as ever explained why we need such things as Extended eventhandlers if we are making simple addons, for me and i maybe wrong here but XEH and such would be applicable where a ttl conversion or mod inherits from the core-cabase.
 If the theory of XEH etc is correct then if we inherit as follows :

 Class soldierWB;
 class Deanosbeano_soldier : soldierWB
 {...
 class Eventhandlers: DefaultEventhandlers

{
 Init="........"
};
};

 Here i have added the init eventhandler to myown class , in theory there should never be anyone else inheriting from my class so my handler shouldn't clash. But if i am to understand it correctly
A my new eventhandler will override any previous eventhandler added by another Mod or addon to all classes from camanbase upto  and including Soldierwb.
 So who would do this ?
 Total conversions
 Mods
 
  Addon makers on the other hand should never really have a need to inherit before the SoldierWb as this would be a MOD(ification)because  it changes every man not just there own character.
   So this allows me to say selfishly" i dont really need any of the XEH stuff", because i intended my addon to work with default BIS not some other mod that changes base classes (which is wrong i know).
 BUT people say that my inheritance above will update SoldierWB which i find strange (yes it will update it because it now as a new sublcass in the .RPT but it wont add my handler to every Soldier WB.

 But in  hindsight i guess the problem is that this is selfish and my addons wont work with other MODS etc that do use XEH .

 Now thats my interpretation , i would be happy if someone else could add some detail so other addon makers can make an informed decision as to whether they should add XEH compatibility .
 i would like to point out that i support such initiatives , but i don't like the fact that they are not introduced in a clear and reasonable manner.
 and of course now bis have added Defaulthandlers themselves way back in the inheritance , so there is even more to be wary of .

 
 

 





 
 

[Wolfrug]

AFAIK all XEH does is allow multiple EHs to be added to a unit (class). One of the first and most prolific users of XEH was MaddMatt's effects: these effects needed to be added to ALL vehicles (for big boom boom explosions and such). However, had he created a config that would've included his eventhandler on all vehicles without XEH, and his effects mod would've been loaded on top of some other mod, then his effects would've entirely 'overruled' the other mod's eventhandlers.

Example: Someone wants to have DSAI, VFAI and MaddMatt's Effects all at the same time. Without XEH, they can only have one, with XEH, they can have all three (added dialogue, weapon AI and pretty effects). Added to this, I suspect that depending on load order, ALL other units' custom eventhandlers might potentially be overwritten.

Example 2: Addonmaker X adds a custom eventhandler to his units (say, for discarding single-shot launchers). XEH now no longer works on these units, since their eventhandlers override everything else. Addonmaker X's units will now not have any of the effects other unit addons might have (such as DSAI). This is where people come in and start asking for XEH compatibility.

So basically addon makers lose nothing by supporting and adding XEH to their addons - their custom eventhandlers still work, and as a bonus, they work with everything else. Everyone wins.

...if I've got it correctly.

Wolfrug out.