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Offline NightJay0044

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Editors Block
« on: 25 Sep 2005, 01:26:00 »
Okay here's my situation.

I have a mission idea,
Idea turns into more detail,
I open up the editor,
I start to think about how I want the mission,

then, i have troubles deciding on where to put the soldiers. I'm not really sure on good spots. Basically I have troubles creating the mission from beginning to end, and I've created missions before obviously.

Any idea's or help, please reply?  

 :noo:
 :hmm:
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Offline Terox

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Re:Editors Block
« Reply #1 on: 25 Sep 2005, 11:32:54 »
goto BIS forums, they are used to this sort of post

If this is a seriouis post then:

Play another game for a month, take a rest from OFP & scripting then you may find your motivation returns and with it your ability to create more missions
« Last Edit: 25 Sep 2005, 11:34:41 by Terox »
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Offline macguba

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Re:Editors Block
« Reply #2 on: 25 Sep 2005, 12:33:38 »
NightJay, I know exactly what you mean.    It used to happen to me too.

It took me a long time to figure what the problem is and its this:  you are stuck at a non-existant level of detail.    When you are thinking about a mission, only certain levels of detail can actually exist in any meaningful way.  

For example, "I want some infantry to attack Goisse" is a meaningful level of detail: it is something which you could carry out.   "I want to put a sniper in that bush" is a meaningful level of detail.     However, "I want to put some machine gunners defending the town from attack from the west" is NOT a meaningful level of detail.

Why not?  It looks perfectly reasonable on the page or in your head.     What's the difference between it and the first or second examples?

Well the second is easy to achieve - that is very precise.   The first is also fairly easy to achieve - it is very vague.  But the third is somewhere in between.  It begs too many questions.   Where are the gunners going to go - in which bushes?  Are there even bushes for them to go in?  What are the fields of fire like from those bushes, do they make any sense?    What about their flanks?  And so on.

What's happening is that there is a flaw in your mission design technique.    You are thinking "I'm going to make a mission where some infantry attack Goisse" which is a perfectly sound idea.   You then lie in bed and think "I'll have some machine gunners defending the west, and a BMP defending the south, and a couple of snipers defending the north, and leave the east a bit vulnerable."   And then you think "Well where are the machine gunners going to go?  Well I'll have to look at the map first and see".

The correct technique is to lie in bed thinking about the circumstances and forces available to the local commander.   "Well the defenders have only recently taken the town so they are a front line unit:  lots of good weapons and highly skilled soldiers, but probably a bit understrength because of casualties.   Not much in the way of tents, but probably a few sandbags.

Then, in the morning, you open the map and Preview the mission, with a player unit and nothing else.   Walk around Goisse imagining that you are the local commander.   You know roughly what forces you will have (because you decided that in bed last night) so you can say "right, machine gunner in that bush.   Line of sandbags there with 2 soldiers behind it" and so on.

In other words, do the design in your head that can best be done there (story, background, circumstances, etc) and design on the ground the things that can best be done there (unit placement, angles of attack and so on.)

Hope that helps.

PS - two specific tips.   Firstly, never stare at the Mission Editor screen trying to decide what to do.  Preview the mission and get on to the ground.    Secondly, when you place a unit, always make it playable.  Preview the mission and test the spot, then think "where would I rather be?" and run around a bit.    The Mission Editor screen is for creating units, and moving them to the right place once you've decided where that is.  You can't tell where a unit should be just by looking at the map.
« Last Edit: 25 Sep 2005, 12:36:07 by macguba »
Plenty of reviewed ArmA missions for you to play

Offline NightJay0044

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Re:Editors Block
« Reply #3 on: 25 Sep 2005, 16:08:24 »
Terox~
Thanks for your tip, that might be a consideration.  People might get sick of OFP and want a change, but I'm not sure if that's my case.

MacGuba~
Hi, yeah that's puts into sense with what I mean.  That is what I do a lot of the time, I sit there and stare at the editors screen, that white blury thing, lol. I sometimes preview the mission, but I dont think enough. Yeah I probably need to also step away and think more about it then to just sit there and stare at the PC, trying to decide okay where should I put these guys or these tanks etc.

Although some people might have no problem doing that. But this is my deal so I have to find a way around it.  Now with your machine gunners example, I could just place them down, and preview it and look to see if that's a good place for them too be. Your right though, you should consider the meaningful level of detail.

Meaningful level of detail, you mean where you place a unit, and then the enemy unit and then you think, is this right, should it be harder or should I put a differnt kind of soldier on the map, instead of just the plain boring M16 or AK47?

Yes your info helped a lot, I'll give this stuff a try. So if you could reply with the above question I asked about meaningful detail, that would be cool, thanks all..
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Offline macguba

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Re:Editors Block
« Reply #4 on: 25 Sep 2005, 17:49:07 »
"Mission where infantry attack Goisse" - Meaningful.  You can create a mission like this.

"Place a prone sniper in bush object 1234 facing 045 degrees" - Meaningful because you can do it.

"Put some machine gunners defending the town from the west" - Not meaningful because you have no idea whether it makes sense or not.  You need to do some research on the map and on the ground before you discover if it makes any sense.    (Maybe there are no bushes for them to hide in.  Maybe the ground slopes away so they can't see anything.  Maybe the enemy will attack with armour from that direction and they should be RPG loons.)

There are no hard and fast distinctions here.  This is just one way of considering the mission creation process.
Plenty of reviewed ArmA missions for you to play

Offline El Fisho

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Re:Editors Block
« Reply #5 on: 25 Sep 2005, 19:04:35 »
hey I've had that before, thought it was just me

Offline 456820

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Re:Editors Block
« Reply #6 on: 25 Sep 2005, 20:26:35 »
pretty much everyone has it ive had it all the time i dont like starting missions from scratch but i dont mind editing one wich is almost finished also fly in chopers over the ground and thats also good to help place tanks put them where its hardest for a chopper to attack.

Offline h-

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Re:Editors Block
« Reply #7 on: 25 Sep 2005, 20:44:52 »
It's common problem in every single art form (=complex creating process)...
Musicians, lyrics, writers, painters (=art), etc do experience the same...

I myself have had a (music) composers block for years now, and it's getting pretty annoying by now...  >:(

I've had mission makers block all the time I think :P
Two release worthy missions in 4-5 years...
« Last Edit: 25 Sep 2005, 22:31:55 by HateR_Kint »
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Offline sim

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Re:Editors Block
« Reply #8 on: 25 Sep 2005, 20:56:24 »
Yeah I've currently got this. You want to create a great mission for people to beta but my mind just goes blank. I think after the unsung release i need a few months R n R.
Or i'll just lay in bed and think like mac said  :P
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Offline NightJay0044

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Re:Editors Block
« Reply #9 on: 26 Sep 2005, 00:55:23 »
I hear what you all are saying. When BIS people make there missions, or who ever makes them, they always know what's good and what's not. You have to wonder how they do it, and make all those missions, and still can think? How do they even plan to think of a large scale campaigns or a missions that's really complex? Do they talk to some army general or something? lol, maybe not that.  Well I think we all should chat on more about this and get down to the bone here, and help everyone out. What do you all say?

If so start replying, posting links for us to go to if you want to search for this topic that were in. Some questions to consider discussing about....

1) What makes a good mission?

2) What specifications do you really need for a proper attack msision, or a proper attack and defend mission and so on.

3) How do you really know where to place soldiers, I mean war can go in any direction.

4) is it really possible for 1 black op against 80 troops and 20 tanks?

Questions like those..Okay that's enough for me now..

 ;D
 :o
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Offline Pilot

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Re:Editors Block
« Reply #10 on: 26 Sep 2005, 01:15:55 »
I would think they have the campaign design already in their head.  Then they simply make missions to fit that general idea.

I probably greatly oversimplified that, but what ever ::)

Quote
What makes a good mission?
I'd say replayability.  Also, no bugs goes a long way to making a mission good. :P  And don't forget about realism.  1 squad taking over a whole island, or 1 black-op destroying a whole company of tanks, isn't that realistic.  I personally prefer those missions that are realistic.  Not to say unrealistic missions can't be fun.

Quote
What specifications do you really need for a proper attack msision, or a proper attack and defend mission and so on.
Not too sure what you mean here...

Quote
How do you really know where to place soldiers, I mean war can go in any direction.
Every battlefield has a front.  Usually troops are placed to that they can respond to a dedicated attack from the front.  Why place your troops facing west if the front is to the east?

Quote
is it really possible for 1 black op against 80 troops and 20 tanks?
See my comment on realistic missions ;D

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Offline Triggerhappy

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Re:Editors Block
« Reply #11 on: 26 Sep 2005, 04:17:48 »
keep in mind,nightjay, that bis made the islands along with the campaign, they had everything planned out, and made the islands for what they were doing, they didn't find the right places, they made them

Offline Fragorl

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Re:Editors Block
« Reply #12 on: 26 Sep 2005, 06:16:31 »
Quote
keep in mind,nightjay, that bis made the islands along with the campaign, they had everything planned out, and made the islands for what they were doing, they didn't find the right places, they made them
Hmmm, maybe, although that's speculation ;D I'd say for a guess that they had a whole team working on the campaigns (maybe between 3 and 8 or so ppl). Keep in mind that a game enigne and maps are one thing, but the campaign is a major part of what the game gets judged on when it comes out, 'coz that's what reviewers play (or sometimes they play a pre-released version). In short, they will have put a lot of resources into the campaigns and missions, in terms of time and money. Money! That's also a big motivator

Offline NightJay0044

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Re:Editors Block
« Reply #13 on: 26 Sep 2005, 06:29:33 »
Yes okay, realism makes sense in making missions. Like come on get real, 1 black Op against a whole Russians Army. Although it is possible in OFP, I've pretty much done that before.

 ;D
 :o
 
Anyway, I found a cool site that gives step by step info on tutorials on mission making and so on, it's a pretty good idea and deal they have there. Here is the link.

http://www.3dactionplanet.com/flashpoint/Tutor_Contents.htm

What does everyone think of that step by step mission making process? I think that's pretty good.  You know modify weather, time etc first, units next, waypoints next, and so on......

And in mission editing, isn't there a way to get around external scripting, with only using "scripting commands" in the init fields, condition fields etc?

Okay lets say this editing block for example:
Lets say you are a squad attacking an enemy Russian town. The first step would be to probably place the Russian Soldiers first, that's what I usually try and do. What if you start placing the Russian soldiers, and you go, okay North position of the town is crapy, now try NE, okay that's crapy, now try E, okay that's crapy, and so on, what if you get to that point in all of the directions of the defenders, which are the Russians?

Keep the ideas flowing everyone, we should break this thread and pull all of our thoughts into one and we can make great missions that we want..

 ;D
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Offline 456820

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Re:Editors Block
« Reply #14 on: 26 Sep 2005, 08:59:22 »
good unit placement is a must have at first glance it loooks like a small infantry squad once you are detected it turns to about 20 soldiers
unit placement can be difficult since the mission isnt always played how you want them to play it
i want the player to come from the east they flank the base and come in fom the west now they can see all the AI that were meant to be un seen until the player is detected so it turns a bit easier for them thats why Nogova is good since you can put men in the buildings