(Review Completed) [SP] Abandoned Armies

[Mikero]

The ReadMe alone is worth the download. Fascinating stuff.

'undocumented features' so far.

Minor. But irritating. #2 who raises the flag in captured towns has a 'move' attached to him, which I guess is understandable, but after flag change, he then goes 'ready'. Bit nasty when you're desperately racing out of there to get away from you-know-what's-coming.

Base camp. After using civil truck to get 1st load of civilians. There's a mysterious driver (see jpg). Don't know who this ghost is but it renders truck unusable. I have then a long walk to 2nd lot, and a really really desperate Erun to get away from 3 squads that come after me. (admittedly I made a bit of noise in Trinite while wolves were howling)

Soldier at barricade in La Passagne stands there, as others report, only a shot or two makes him do something, and then not much. We sorta lay together playing marbles and shooting at everything except each other. I believe this would also be true of the guy left, at wooden hut.  This general apathy of the enemy is very marked around Vigny / Passagne, a few
are aggressive, but most can't "see" you when you fire at them. Red soldiers (northrons) are vicious, southrons are statues. In v1.1 I had to work to save my backside from the ai. In this version, it's fairly, not always, but fairly safe to wait for them to walk right up to you. (saves bullets). It was severely unpleasant in 1.1 but this, has become a cakewalk by comparison.

The lag now is dreadfull. So bad, I nearly stopped in tears. (anywhere around Trinite). Admittedly I hung round too long, and had both armies come to investigate, but I had to cheatsave my way back to mountain to (basically) avoid all possible contact to get the lag off my back.

There's a distinct difference to my troops, partly lag, or perhaps their skill level set low (even though marked expert?). I assume you're building their ai through the mission. Unfortunately for me, at the beginning stuff (where I am now) I 'm losing several because they're SO DUMB! In this mission, I can't afford to lose any, not a single one of them, so have to keep going back to a save and try again. It's exasperating because in many fights (passagne, Audy) there's only 5 against us. With the seriously long load times this is getting tedious. If I'm right that the've been dumbed down to dangerous, then (imho) this is a mistake for this mission. They're too valuable to lose. It is of course a great theme idea, but the consquences are deadly for later mission play.

Re-arranging troops and the way it was done, is  lovely stuff Thob. There is a lot more that's good too, but the above is hurting.

[THobson]

Base camp. After using civil truck to get 1st load of civilians. There's a mysterious driver (see jpg). Don't know who this ghost is but it renders truck unusable. I have then a long walk to 2nd lot,

I am dumbfounded.  Where and when did this happen?  He is in the driver's seat?  Seriously - I do the mounatin scene, collect the first civis, then just get back in the truck and go for the second lot.  I have never seen anything like this.  Anything you can tell me about where when what happened before this etc. would be of great help.

I have done nothing to the enemy ai - but I have given them some doWatch instructions that I think are taking up too much of their attention.  I will try it without.

On the ai of your team.  I start them off low skill but their skill level builds quickly (I had thought too quickly).  It may be that increasing their skill during the mission does not get them to where they would be if they were given a high skill at the outset.

The flag changer - I will see what I can do.  Maybe a doFollow - but I thiught I had tried that.

Lag: There are now quite a few more triggers than in the previous version - hardly any to do with the mission, mostly for atmospheric voiceovers.  All use once triggers are deleted after they are used so things should improve.  I may need to lose some of these though.  There are also a few more groups - again not really relevant to the mission just to the atmosphere.  They may need to go also.  Perhaps I could delete some of this stuff in the init file based on the player's benchmark.

Did the wolves stop howling?

Glad you liked the readme at least.  I also have a 'spoiler' document that describes in more detail what is going on (nearly 20 A4 pages).  Maybe I should just publish that and forget about the mission.

I am playing this version as well.  Mostly I test the mission in pieces and only occassionally do a full run though.  I have noticed the lag but not yet found it a pain.  I am doing the mission in a way I have never done it before - not starting a war but just concentrating on one side.  I set myself the task of capturing the ammo truck that is in one of the convoys - 2 standard issue mines, a LAW and a few Bizon rounds and it was mine.  

EDIT:
Stupid soldiers at La Pessagne - I think this might be a lag issue.  I can't replicate it not in the mission editor anyway.  I try to walk around the place and even with all the fog and the dark I am dead in seconds.

EDIT EDIT:
The guy in the truck is Yuri - or his clone.  I use two of them because if I setPos a unit out of a vehcile then some very strange things can happen later.  YuriClone is used for the scene in the hut and the journey to the lodge.  When there he is deleted while in the truck and the real Yuri takes his place for the cutscene and everything after than.  It seems that the delete did not work in your case (more lag screwing up a script?) and that while the cutscene was going on he got back in the truck as the driver.  You could just kill him - but that is not the point.

If I am right he was sat there as the driver immediately after the second cutscene at the lodge - the one after you rescue the first lot of civilians.  I have no idea how to fix this apart from deleting him several times - but that is just dealing with the symptoms, not the problem.

Some very strange things are happening with this version.  I now have a ladder that doesn't work - but it was fine in all the rehearals - and there were a lot of those.  I have thought of a solution to that one but Yuri in the truck is a worry.

[456820]

okay im going to give this another go

Readme
Interesting anyway why do you care how to improve your readme onto the game

Overview
Good nice desctiption and pic but the border could of been abit smaller

Intro
Fine some good shots nice use of hanging the civiallians.
But i did every so often miss out the odd ending of a sentence

Briefing
Fine tells me what i need to do and of course im not working for an army so there wouldnt be huge intell reports good work

Mission
First imperssions are grreat very good atmosphere already with the owl hooting to what sounds like custom rain sounds good very good.
Anyway i run up the mountain hoping not to run into any patrols and hoping im going the right way
I see a fence and i advance around it and see a house with a fire hlaf in and half out the wall, anyway i see a russain shoot him then one wich is behind him runs off likke alittle sissy so im hoping he wont sound an alarm or something
I go and talk to that civiallian in the house and have alittle cut scene very nice then she runs of and gets herself killed.
Anyway radio savegame, and i get in the polic jeep and ride of over the mountains to find that house trying not to go near the road
okay i get to the lodge and am gretted with a cutscene very nice but 2 things
1) they keep saying were going to kill soldiers couldnt it be phrased a bit better they sound like 2 year olds playing army
2) that guy says hes going to show me on the map where the fuel stations are why not forcemap and actually show me using the map.

Anyway savegame why not since i got a new one.
Reorganise team everyone join me because i want a nice big squad who cares what they think there bound to die because im a useless leader.
Okay i check the map and decide im going to Chapoi first or actually maybe the air base as they might have choppers and planes then i can rain hell from above but wait its an airbase its bound to be more defended i will need more men so i go to Chapoi hoping to find more men on the way.
i take about 2 steps forward and BANG im dead so i rety look who did it i relise in the end it was one of my men who 2 things
1) why shoot me
2) Why was he shooting in the air and when he did how did i get caught in the cross fire ??
anyway i think i will rety and shoot the bugger right i did and when i started running they opened fire on me ?? i know i shot a team mate but he was going to shoot me.
And in the readme you say there are no tricks whats this then i didnt do anything for a teamate to randomly shoot in the air and somehow kill me ?? im confused
What am i suposed to do apart from stand there ?
so therefore i must end
plases i would love to know why that guy keeps shooting at me

[THobson]

I have had this but only once.  There is some discussion much higher up this thread between macguba and I about hearing shooting when there was no fighting.  It seems that OFP does that sometimes - just randomly a piece of blue on blue.  If you restart and just carry on does he always shoot you? and is it always him?  It really would help me to know.  There is no trick it is an OFP bug.  What I can do for the next version is give the player a high rating from the start to see if that helps.  If you always get shot after restarting all I can suggest is to re-start from the beginning    Sorry

So you plan to ignore the poor civilians do you?

they keep saying were going to kill soldiers couldnt it be phrased a bit better they sound like 2 year olds playing army

I had hoped they sounded like desperate people cheerfully embarking on an impossible task.  Last throw of the dice sort of thing.

[Mikero]

>Glad you liked the readme at least.

Hmm 'fraid you might say that. Reporting bugz is a negative excercise. There's a lot of marvellous new stuff in here, wolves, roadblocks, tightened cutscenes, new (and terrifying) routes for the jeeps. But, bugz is bugz.

Wolves stopped howling, no probs. Frightening, alarming, scary, thematic. They hit me just at the right time, the ghost town of Trinite, what more??? could you ask for, to realise that town was OCCUPIED !!. Convinced if I walk into a buiding there one would tear me to pieces. Doesn't matter if that wasn't your intention. 2nd wolf hit happened in forest, need I say more to how frightening that can be? try disorientation for a start, you lose a sense of getting away, there isn't a diretion to get away to. Marvellous.

The wolves were generally accompanied by a squad or three coming to greet me a little time later, gave another impression of radioactive mutation. Northrons had mutated into something I wasn't going to appreciate

>YuriClone

I'll put my hand up. I collected 1st civilians and decided this was the opportunity, right now, to go collect La Passagne weaponry. I had knocked off the sleeping zombies long ago. Was wary of doing so because of the warning not to go back to Vigny.

As I got out, they got out, and etc. I think I may have got in-out several times because a few desperate counter moves by me when northrons came at us. Their aggression incidentally was severe compared to south.

This in -out and voiceovers were accompanied by mixes of change the flag stuff, and all seemed to work 'ok'. (But it's here that the move, ready, of #2 first surfaced, and looked like a monstrous bug until i figured out the why)

>Stupid soldiers at La Pessagne - I think this might be a lag issue.

Lag is insignificant to non existent (yes, I know about the Vigny walk up the hill) It''s not detectable until Trinite and I suspect it's going to hit me big time if I stick around any town too long where vehicles are present. My take is, it's a vehicle issue, not a numbers game. But your meaning of lag might be additional to mine, meaning engine is working overtime in the background, visually, there's no lag.

>dumbed friendly ai.

It's possibly too early to say, others may / may not detect it. For me, this version, my tactics have to be different. I am 'used to' using my precious and beloved troops to help me raid towns. Will have a crack at Arudy and see if they remain as dissapointing, or, there's some other factor at play. The reason why I think it was a good-idea-at-the-time problem, is this mission, you learned fast, to rely on your people as the only means of survival. That, has now gone. What is your estimation of when ai = 1.0 ?? And, do I have to have them with me, or can I park them somewhere until it happens?

[THobson]

Glad you liked the wolves.  I don't specifically control when they appear, or I would force them to do so at La Trinite.  I know I need to know about problems - but it is also good to know what is good especially so I don't get rid of it in the trimming that will have to happen now.

The wolves were generally accompanied by a squad or three coming to greet me a little time later, gave another impression of radioactive mutation.

Pure coincidence, but a neat idea.

At La Passagne you were probably still dealing with southrons (red flag)

move, ready, of #2 first surfaced, and looked like a monstrous bug

Now fixed - all I needed to do was give the guy a final instruction of doFollow his leader.

As I got out, they got out, and etc. I think I may have got in-out several times

The code should be fully capable of handling this, but taking the civis (that you cannot control) to a potentially hostile area might be seen as a bit risky.  Nevertheless the problem should not have occurred.  I really need more details on this one if possible.  So you got in and out several times and each time you were the driver?  When you got to the lodge you had a cutscene and Yuri joined you then you found his clone sitting in the driver's seat of the truck?  Is that how it happened? And as far as you can tell the cutscene was okay - you got told about the other civis, and Houdan and your team mates disagreed about what to do next?

I do think there is a sort of ‘internal lag' that may not be visible but does result in the OFP engine doing things less crisply than desirable.  I think I will have to remove the voice overs from the little of atrocities I have scattered around, I may even have to remove the atrocities themselves.  I think the triggers are killing me - either delete them or figure out a way to use one trigger and just move it about - that should be possible.

Skill levels:  I will IM you with some details.


Could the poor ai performance at LeP be put down to incompetence and simply not expecting anyone to bother them, after all they have a knocking shop just up the road.  Their team mates certainly make up for it later - in my run through I have not yet engaged the northrons, and I am not having an easy time of it.  In other words does it spoil things?

[tudders]

First off - wow!  What an idea and what execution  

I love it but is there a way to change it so that accelerated time is allowed? (Short off repeatedly pressing + over and over again which is sure to be giving me rsi  ;D).

I know that i'll lose some of the atmosphere by acc. time but i reckon the sky effects do enough to compensate and i hate spending ages to get to a terget and then die or lose a squad member and have to do it all over again.

Asise from that though this has gotta be the greatest mission ever!

[THobson]

tudders:  sorry, the mission is all about atmosphere, and terror.  I can't generate the terror you would get from beign really killed - but seeing a group of units on its way to attack you and then remembering how far back you last saved comes close enough.

Don't get rsi, just go with it, soak up the atmosphere, be there.

[Mikero]

It's turning into another magical experience Thob.

I've got to the point in the game where all towns are now cleared with lots of retaliatory counter flag raising occurences   Don't know if you realise the extra dimension you now added. I can now spot if nasties have re-entered the town by this method.

You've introduced some wonderful stuff, one in particular I don't want to spoil for others, let's say the synonym for Houdan. I can't get up the ladder, it wont let me. I believe this is either an undocumented feature, or, I can't do it till something else I'm not aware of, but my people are constantly bleating about it. That group rearrangement thingo has to be the most wonderful new experience so far. The voicovers are fascinating. So to the salute after raising a flag.

The wolves are 'just right' typically English of you with understatement, just three times in game so far, not, now, then and lots.

>Yuri Clone

All as you describe, I cannot recall anything strange or amiss EXCEPT there was no map when it was being discussed by my troops, just black screen voiceover and titles.

Am severely worried that I missed something in that fabulous cutscene dialog, something about 'other' civilians western side of T3. Hunted, but found nothing so far.

Everything has tightened up in this version Thob, you might have introduced new elements, but the storyline has more bang for buck with things happening when they should, and of course, always when i don't want them to.

Hope you dont delete the bodies voicovers, they're great.

My people hit expert / veteran very early shortly after T3. The lag was caused by me starting the war inadvertently, a convoy got in my way to T3 and that was that.

It remains heavy whenever a tank is near, and, specifically, a tank, not a truck or vulcan.

There remains a mist/fog issue, I came down with my people towards Larche (the nasties occupied it three times !!!). Everyone except me could see each other, my guess, 20 to meters further.

Have noticed several smaller things like a new time of day and considerably reduced fog/mist.

Spotted a civilian, a girl, when I cleaned out St Louis. Nice.

[THobson]

I can now spot if nasties have re-entered the town by this method.

I like that too.  Not just that it helps you, I think it adds to the atmosphere - and the indignation

The bloody ladder!!!  It looks like an OFP bug.  I can get up the ladder in the mission editor and during testing.  In this version for some reason the player is not given the option.  I am afraid your team mates will bleat about it until you get up it - but you can't.  In the next version I will not have the cutscene dependant on the ladder.  It is a pity I think you would have appreciated what you would have found there.  It is not mission critical, it is just pure atmosphere - and directions to another location that is also just atmosphere.

The wolves might be just a little too understated - I didn't get them once and it is now broad daylight, the sun is shining and I am in the lowlands so I won't have much chance for awhile yet.

Saluting the flag - well I thought why not?  Any infantry unit that changes the flag will go through the same routine whether they are north, south or resistance.

I cannot recall anything strange or amiss EXCEPT there was no map when it was being discussed by my troops, just black screen voiceover and titles.

I do not display the map, but equally I only have a black screen between scenes and apart from the  "…how can we do them the most damage…but first we need weapons" I never have a voiceover on a black screen.  I am totally stuck on the Yuri problem.  I will resort to deleting him twice, checking if he is still there and doing it again.  Not very satisfactory.

Am severely worried that I missed something in that fabulous cutscene dialog, something about 'other' civilians western side of T3. Hunted, but found nothing so far.

Veterans of v 1.00 will have an edge on you there.  I can just imagine macguba's heart sinking if he ever hears those words.  He hated that third group.  Don't worry, not mission critical.  You heard about them you went to investigate but found nothing, you now have an uneasy fealing of having missed something.  I suppose that is a pretty realistic result. ;D

It remains heavy whenever a tank is near

I have not yet experienced having a tank near, I have taken to leaving a few standard issue mines as calling cards when I clear any of the locations - with some success.

Spotted a civilian, a girl, when I cleaned out St Louis.

In a house?

That group rearrangement thingo has to be the most wonderful new experience so far. The voicovers are fascinating.

Thanks.  There is some randomisation of the messages and as you have noticed (bleating about going somewhere) there is some context sensitivity as well.

I am really irritated about the ladder.

As for my own run through.  I am much slower than you.  Cleared Arudy, left some mines (T80, T72, and a Vulcan - T80 and T72 are repairable).  Left an AV mine near a road junction - it took out the whole of the jeep patrol.  Cleared Vigny (left Ruslan on the outskirts), started attacking LeP but some nasty armour (Abrams and BMP full of soldiers) turned up.  Dropped a couple of standard issue mines and legged it (well actually it was broad daylight and the sun was shining so I crawled from bush to bush all the way back to Vigny and beyond).  The mines nicely disabled the Abrams, but I couldn't get the BMP and get away alive.  Over to the road between Dourdan and Houdan.  Two standard mines took out all the convoy except the ammo truck and the infantry truck.  Next trip I hit the infantry truck with a LAW.  Next trip, while I was clearing Dourdan, the ammo truck was taking its time getting past the dead ural so I took out the occupants, as I was getting to the truck - someone else got in!  Eventually I was driving away with my new ammo truck.

Went back to have a look at Dourdan - it had been reoccupied.  I sniped a few, left an AP mine at my position and re-located.  Sure enough they came looking for me ;D.  I think I have now cleared Dourdan again.  My strategy is to use up all the guard units, then go round taking out the outlying groups - which unfortunately I already know about but I think they are logical - with the intent of weakening Stamenov so much that Andropov is prompted to attack.  If necessary I might have to venture to Chapoi to achieve this, but there are bound to be a lot of nasties there.  It is taking a while but I am enjoying it.  I'm not sure how long I will be able to resist the temptation to start work on v1.22 though, there is already a lot I need to do.

[456820]

its always the same soldier and he does actually shoot in the air if you look to the right you see him look up and fire then i drop dead its neverhappened before in any other mission, its very weird he does it every time i restart from the save game by any chance could he be the gut who said he doesnt want to go or something like that because he might of felt angry (even though ai dont have feelings) and then shot me or the air

[THobson]

Okay.  I know what is happening, I just don't know why yet.  It isn't blue on blue.  Remember when you arrive at the lodge and you are told to Halt, and then to get out of the vehicle (if you are in one)?  Well it seems that the script that makes you get killed if you don't do what you are told is not exiting.  How that can be I have no clue.  Can you remember exactly when this killing takes place?  Is it after the cutcene with all the 'we are going to kill soldiers' that you don't like?  Is it as soon as you move after the end of the scene?  If you stand still do you remain safe?

This is really wierd.

@ all:

So far I have two very strange things
1. Mikero's phantom driver caused by a deleteVehcile in a scrpt not working
2. 456820's problem where a script is not exiting when it should and results in him being killed.

Well three actually a damned ladder that doesn't allow anyone to climb - well not me or Mikero anyway.  I would be interested if others do get up the ladder.  f you don't know what I mean it doesn't matter - you know as soon as you get there.

Does anyone else have anything similar?

Does anyone have any ideas?

[lilwillie_WI]

Well, I sure picked a fine time to get back into playing OFP

Been off the radar some time and something got me back into my OFP gaming. WOW, this is a impressive undertaking and it doesn't feel like a mission, but a whole new game.

3 hours last night and it was a blast, I haven't read into what the previous play problems or versions where like so 1.21 is fresh for me.

To this point, Vigny situation, save some civs in different locations, and find a Russkie in Houdan. That was where I ended last night. I had to sleep on it. I've never played a game where I just plain decided I didn't know if I should trust the guy and decided to sleep on it hoping whatever the mission designer's reasoning would pop into my head. Very cool.  I just feel his staying alive may come back to haunt me.


Threw all this no play problems, no lag issues. Meet some convoys and patrols but never engaged. Want to do some Recon first, see if I pick up on patterns and enemy weaknesses and size. My base of operations is filling up with troops. My weapon stock is growing and I think I may engage some hostiles soon  ;D

Again, great mission and I will be playing the heck out of it for a loooong time.

[THobson]

lilwillie_WI:

Threw all this no play problems, no lag issues

That is great to hear.

I won't comment so as not to spoil anything.

Meet some convoys and patrols but never engaged. Want to do some Recon first, see if I pick up on patterns and enemy weaknesses and size

There is no right way to play this mission, but this is the sort of thing I had in mind when I was making it.

Let me know how you get on.  Even seemingly small things can tell me a lot about how the mission is working.


456820:
I have been thinking about your problem, well not your problem it is my problem but you know what I mean.  This is code that has remained unchanged since way before v1.00 so it is obviously not a predictable problem.  I think it might be that something delayed one of the running scripts - how or why I don't know.  If I am right I do know how to fix it, but only for the next version I'm afraid.  If you can face it, it might be sufficiently random that it would not re-occur if you were to start again.  I can't promise that all I can say is that no one has reported this problem.  Sorry.

[456820]

no problem i might restart and have another test later on if i feel like it
Also do you actually use custom rain sounds because it sounds like it just curious