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Author Topic: (Review Completed) [SP] Abandoned Armies  (Read 263370 times)

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Offline macguba

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #615 on: 24 Apr 2005, 11:12:01 »
@mikero - I agree with you about tanks.   They are fun tank on tank, but otherwise not so great.      It is my view, however, that they should be a good option for the second base to avoid the feeling of repetition.

@THobson - leaving aside the questions of difficulty for a second, there is a potential problem of pace in this mission.    The climax for most people (there are so many ways to play this you can never be sure) will be the destruction of the first base.    That is what you have been working towards.    Consequently, in order to have a really satisfactory "mission experience", the rest of the mission should be a glorified coda:  a mopping up operation.    Of course you should still have to work a bit, but you have a very long way to go and some nastiness at the other end (hidden snipers and so on).    Therefore, anything you can do to make this last section of the mission easier would be welcome.    It should be, as a matter of mission design, deliberately slightly easier than the meat of the mission.     I think mikero and I are in agreement on this.

@Both - I must read mikero's story, I avoided it since he was ahead of me.

@THobson - I enjoyed the beginning.     Got a bit bored and frustrated occasionally collecting everybody.   Enjoyed Dourdan obviously.    Enjoyed Chapoi.    From then on it was like cleaning out a byre with a broken shovel.  In the rain.  

However I think the general structure is now about right, and we have proved that bugs are not a major problem.   Most of what needs to be done is polishing and rebalancing, and we can't test the rebalancing very well anyway because we know the mission.

AA - yes I think that is about right, it certainly all worked fine for me.

Random squads appearing - yes you are right that towards the end the island would be a shambles of roving bands.   However, remember your job - you are a mission designer:  an author.   A creator of smoke and mirrors.   It is your job to make the player feel that the island is a shambles of roving bands, while still ensuring that he has fun.    Just letting the AI handle it is a cop out.   And in any case, this was a problem even before the war started.   In v1 I didn't waste my time with vehicles at all, knowing that in the long run its quicker to walk.   In 1.1 I used vehicles as much as possible to provide contrast, but it was miserable work.     I was ambushed and killed myself two or three times in soft vehicles, and near the end when I was trying to reorganise the convoy I had to give up after 8 or 9 attempts, partly because the AI was mad but partly under the pressure of a devastating attack by three squads ... one of which definitely consisted of a single loon (no rockets) and a second which I suspect had the same composition.    The third - about 5 with at least one and possibly two law loons - we managed to deal with every time with no more than one hit.

What I'm suggesting is a minor/medium rethink of the way the guard groups are used.    I'm suggesting that you control them a little more rather than just letting the AI do it.    Random ambushes will always be a part of it and that's fine, and the affair at the end was because it was near the end, but in the heart of the mission their frequency should be reduced.

Far too many LAW/AT loons at the end, I think we've established that.

Sorry about the dark pic.   The tank is facing south, between the field hospital and the hooped tent immediately to the FH's west.    In all cases the T80 was somewhere on the hillside/woods to the southwest of Dourdan, and was being ordered in the direction of Houdan.    He had no reason to go anywhere near Dourdan.   There is no reason why anybody should ever go there, and no reason why he should get stuck if he did.   It's obviously some invisible thing (which will be impossible to replicate) so just jiggle things around a little and hope for the best.

Now that you know about camera.sqs you should relook at all of your cutscenes.   Most can be improved.  I know you've done a lot of work already, but that's a sunk cost.    The zoom out from the dead members did work but it was slightly too fast.     It is fine to leave them where they are - even if some are hidden by walls or something people understand that's unavoidable, and in most cases it will be fine anyway - all of mine worked.   The living were all safe, except one who was prone.

Idle curiosity is fine.   I don't mind a bit of exploring although remember it has just got dark and there's no 4x.   I may try letting it run overnight tonight if there is anything you need to see in daylight.

I thought the mines were good anyway, although open to improvement as you are doing.    I only used them in one area but they were absolutely superb.   It's great having the ability to use a handgrenade to make an AP mine, I've alwys wanted that - felt it was an ommission in the game.   I never placed one accidentally.

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I adopt the same approach to my garden btw - though I now suspect my wife of paying people to come and work on it.)
Lol twice!

I remember your comment about the Abrams in Un-Impossible.   And you are absolutely right about tactics.   The problem here is that you cannot use the correct tactics.   Partly because you are always being caught in short range ambushes, and partly because of the weather.

It isn't mission killer serious, it is only pain in the butt serious.   You have the option of doing it on foot after all.    I think you should try and reduce the original number of law loons altogether, and make many of them very low skill.   This will mean lots of missiles flying about but not too many of them hitting you.    When looking at, for example, the defences of the airfield, remember that (in armour terms) the closest approximation to a law loon is a T72.  (Actually it's probably slightly weaker, but noticeably stronger than T55/M60.)    Replace all you law loons with T72s and see how the player would feel attacking the airfield now.  

Also, as I said before, greater control of guard groups.   I haven't looked into how these work but, for example, you could make them zonal, so that each one only responded in a certain area.    Use more waypoints and more switch triggers so that if they are called out and find no battle, they search the area (at the moment they mostly just stand there) then return to their base.    It is their cross country maneuvres (from one callout point to another) that make them so dangerous.     Un-Impossible uses "infinite waypoint loops" if you want to see an example.    The armoured groups use them.   I suspect at the moment your chaps just have a guard waypoint which is maybe moved from time to time, but that's it.   More sophistication would be better.   But again, this is pain in the butt serious its not a mission killer.

Overall the difficulty level has scope for reduction - after all, you have an awful lot of loons to kills.    I often say for long missions that if you have a lot of contacts, then each contact should be pretty easy and that rule of thumb applies here.   Nothing major required, but as your tweaking tweak toward easier rather than harder.

AI routefinding is not your concern, that's a game issue.

Your replies are adequate, do not fear.   :)



(I have to post as I write in case a bloody cat stands on the keyboard, since Mr Gates has decreed that virtually any random key combination deletes your work.   What a clever man he is.)

« Last Edit: 24 Apr 2005, 11:53:01 by macguba »
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Offline Mikero

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #616 on: 24 Apr 2005, 11:40:43 »
Perhaps unlike Mr Mac, I am itching to get back into this world (as he says) you created (good one mac).  I *will* marry Irena this time round,  instant homesickness with that small pbo you uploaded.

The mission is immense, for that reason, I'd rather conserve my energy, and selfishly, conserve my enjoyment, for the next version. 24 hours + is a long time off the internet !!! I really can't wait to get up that damn hill again, I have all sorts of cunning plans up my sleeve that I want to explore, moving entire truck contingents to Le Port, a sneaky plan brewing to get godzilla, all sorts of things

I also want to smack one side so hard and do a MacGuba, but to the Northrons. Hours and hours of possibilities here.

BTW, i did notice, my 1st go thru to airport was done 'differently' to the standard St Louis approach. I came in off the beach. The scenario was remarkably different as a result, niether better nor worse, but not as many nasties. You might want to beef that end up. Attack the fuel station and lotsa horrible things come running there eg.

If you attack chapoi fuel station, this is what does happen. (tanks from north)

As far as ap/av, i'd hate safety features just as much, providing you can give me a toggle so that I can use my wrist 'normally', I wont have anything to complain about. If not, I will never enter that hut (and I didnt, for a very long time, 2nd go)

The only BAD experience I have had with vehicles your mission, is vehicles in general and not a tank specifically. Me driving a tank, fine, Irena blasting away, fine. It's just general vehicle issues, that you already recognise. Whether you tweak them doesn't trouble me greatly.

as far as using tanks in general, I would, certainly, have done so, irrespective of poor ai, but, a second problem reared it's head. The ability of ai to see thru "mist" (i dunno if mist fog rain, can't remember) THAT killed it stone motherless dead.

I dont agree with you removing ANY rocket guys. You reduce them, then ALL ai looks for contact lenses. This is my experience speaking as a player. Am not interested in a turkey shoot.

Your description of firing from range is fine, but for that to happen, and I would suggest the flat long huge wide airport is 'perfect' for that, you clear the fog and let the battle commence. Eg us vs other tanks. Dont  mind, dont care if you never do that, just a suggestion. It would change the final theme nicely for me.

Finally, please have a look back at my suggestion for Trinite and why it is a ghost. I knew by your reply, you were snowed under at the time and didn't pay too much attention to it.
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Offline Mikero

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #617 on: 24 Apr 2005, 11:53:17 »
@MacGuba

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I think mikero and I are in agreement on this.

yes, and in spades. Particularly the reference to repeating it all again. (I too mentioned that)

I think your definition of a beginning, a middle and an end, sums it up very well.

>Rockets.

I'd have to think a bit on that one, because unlike you, I wasn't keen to touch armour (you did so for honorable reasons). I'd have to experience them in the numbers you did to have any opinion at all.

The one thing i DO know is once you remove rockets,, then any Tank turns Loons dumb (for obvious reasons), and if that happened, it would destroy the mission.

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It isn't mission killer serious, it is only pain in the butt serious.  You have the option of doing it on foot after all.


precisely.

>random squads

you touched on something there I wanted for my game play. To keep it short and to exagerate greatly, if I attacked Goisse, I wanted the entire Northron army converging on the spot while I went off to Le Port. One of my cunning plans was to totally confuse the enemy dragging him to places I was not, and thus wealening evrything else for a time. If Chapoi rushed out, and I rushed in, well !!

« Last Edit: 24 Apr 2005, 12:00:37 by mikero »
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Offline macguba

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #618 on: 24 Apr 2005, 11:55:26 »
No sense in removing rockets from loons at the end, but maybe run a check so that if a new combined squad has several law loons some of them lose their launchers in a puff of code.

Upon completing v1 I mentioned a lack of slickness.   This has been much improved, but again, it's one of these things to think about as you're tweaking.   Always go for the slickest way.   When you're placing a vehicle in a base, sure think about looks and how it would really be and so on, but also think "what makes it quickest and easiest for the player?"   For example, ordinary trucks should face out of nets, so you can drive away.   Ammo and repair trucks should face in, so that they are useable easily.


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- The intention with this mission is to get the player to a point where they think: "Now what should I do?" and have plenty of options to choose from.  Does it succeed in your view?
Basically yes.      The more you can develop the story and characters teh better from this point of view.    The information the deserter gives you is absolutley critical:   the script of that scene must written very carefully indeed, as it is the transition point from prescriptive play (rescue him now him) to imaginative (what will I do now?)

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- Each side gives up when their leader is dead and they are down to a loon count of 10 or less. What does this feel like?  Too many?  Too few?
Didn't really notice it at either end, so I presume its fine.    At the airfield (when I went back after Andropov was dead) there were an awful lot of loons just milling around in the middle.    Having them on two or three groups might be better.

Groups of bodies in Stamenov's area:  make them more diverse.  Different numbers, cramped up or spread out - they are too similar.

Bring back the mad women if you can.

Sequence of objectives is now fine.

Replay value.   An interesting one this.   It is the kind of mission that many people will really want to play twice.    It doesn't need random starting locations (which I know you've taken out) becuase the replay value is not in the randomness:   it is in the player's choices.   Do I rescue all these civvies?  Do I start the war?  Do I go to La Trinite?    The more randomness you can take out, the better.    You want it to start off identically each time you play, so that you can try different things.    Petty randomness, like the number of loons guarding Tatyana, is obviously good.

Combine rating, time passing and objective completion with setSkill commands to increase the skill of all of your squad throughout the mission.  This will provide a reward for keeping your loons alive.   Perhaps a sound file or two of conversation to bring the player's attention to this.

I did look out for the cd player in vehicles but never found one, or never noticed it if I did.   Add it to more vehicles.

Starting to read mikero's comments.    Most of the remaining lag in the mission is mostly caused by static objects, have another trim.   (I know I've mentioned this before.)

I recommend again, if you haven't done it already, to convert to stringtable.csv.  Gets everything in one place so you won't miss andythng and can change stuff.  Makes life much easier.

It's very noticeable that about the only weapons not in the mission are G36 and Steyr.   The ones you really want.   It feels harsh:  don't put them in, but take out some of the others.  Uzi for example.  Keep it to the standards:  HK, bizon, AK, M16, MGs, snipers.

Mikero felt the need to have a firefight before colleciting all teh civvies.  I did too, although I managed to restrain myself.   I think most players will.

@mikero yes a squad will protect its flanks.  Annoyingly, most of a squad in wedge look behind you, rather than at least some looking the same way as you.

I believe one or two of the signposts on the island are just wrong.  Not sure though.

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I'm a bit off balance with no machine gunner in my squad,
It is a real problem.   In fact I had a machine gunner (carrying a satchel instead of one mag) for  most of the mission but it occurs to me that in fact my squad didn't do much of the shooting, it was mostly me.    With a normal squad of 8 or 9 you could easily carry what you need but with these three civvies you are very short.    Consider having one of the civvies changing into uniform and becoming a soldier during one of the cutscenes.   (i.e. replace one unit with another.)   Preferably the girl.  

(sorry this section is a bit confusing as to whether I'm talking to Thobson or mikero, but I'm kind of betting you'll both read it and will be smart enough to figure out what's what.)

Consider putting a field hospital at the fuel depot northeast of the airfield.   You have Saint louis in the south.    The problem at both bases is the hospital is unusable until you have completely cleared the area, and apart from Saint Louis neither of them has a hospital anywhere nearby.  

Consider having the second civvy pickup deep in the heart of the mission.    You could add back the medic at that point if he has been lost.   This would depend on getting a radio message from somewhere, but you know my views on that.

You're an unlucky bastard mikero ... you're constantly making reasonable assumptions that turn out to be wrong.  ;D

Interesting that  you feel lag adds atmosphere.   I don't entirely agree but I do know exactly what you mean.

You're right about the left flank (odds) being stronger than the right. (evens)   It wasn't so pronounced for me but I did notice it.

If it's possible, we need more flags.  I did see one or two, but not many.

Keep the armour that arrives in the end game, although in may case at the airport it was too late.    Mitigate the Abrams problem by committing all Abrams to the war, if you havn't already.

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I laugh when I see people complaining that the OFP limit of 63 groups per side is too small!
So do I.    Or rather I cry, since those folk have no conception of how powerful triggers and waypoints are.  

Big AT minefields are very difficult.    I've thought about them and its not clear how to make them really effective and really fun without buckets of triggers to keep the home team out.    

Leave the wagons in La Trinite.   There is just time to have a quick look round and steal them between convoys, but only just.    Your second attempt, after the retry, keeps your heart pumping.    I was even caught when I tried to grab them in 1.1.

Yeah, take the flags out of the Briefing.   At least at first.   But have more in the mission maybe, yes why not for infantry if the game can take it.   Let the player work it out.    Choose a different flag for the north, its ugly and too similar to the southron one - both are three solid blocks.   Have one that is fundamentally different.
« Last Edit: 24 Apr 2005, 14:04:24 by macguba »
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Offline THobson

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #619 on: 24 Apr 2005, 12:46:33 »
Lots for me to think about here guys.  Thanks.  I have copied and pasted many more points into my to do list than I have commened on in this thread, so yes I was a bit snowed under when mike you were commenting on La Trinite.  But it did get copied and pasted so will not be lost.

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I suspect at the moment your chaps just have a guard waypoint which is maybe moved from time to time, but that's it.  
Well actually it is a bit more sophisticated than that.  Most of the roaming groups have S&D/Cycle waypoint combinations that get moved about randomly.  Then under certain circumstances they switch trigger to a guard waypoint, and not all trigger under the same conditions.  Some go to guard when any of their side are killed by either resistance or the other side; some go on guard when the war breaks out; and some only go on guard when their side is entering its endgame position.

At the moment I am completely knackered and everywhere I look there are things to do.  But I do feel to have made some progress, to use building a house as an analogy, at this stage with v1.00 I was relocating load bearing structures, now it feels more like putting up some internal walls, and putting in the wiring.

Keep the comments coming, they are all going onto the list.  Thanks.
« Last Edit: 24 Apr 2005, 12:48:15 by THobson »

Offline macguba

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #620 on: 24 Apr 2005, 14:06:07 »
May have added more random comments to my last post since you read it.

Your house analogy is good, that's exactly how it feels.   Much still to do but foundations are solid and the roof is on.  :thumbsup:
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Offline Mikero

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #621 on: 24 Apr 2005, 14:31:52 »
@Mac

forgive the butt in, some of your stuff is too good to go unsupported, and some, not so.

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Sequence of objectives is now fine.

Nope. There is a definite lean to Chapoi. It begins with the girls, last civils, and made worse with the Russian who basically, HINT HINT, giant HINT mentions rescuing them. I remain convinced that this in fact, was, the authors initial storyline, the airport is an add on.

>rockets

You are right, they could be, perhaps should be, reduced, but not by much. I am scared witless of dumbed down ai if it happend to this misson.

>puff of code.

and, what's more, I would LOVE the player to see this. Because, it is EXACTLY what a player does !!!! We already see re-arming M2.

>3rd civilians

it would make a huge difference to the lameness of collecting them all. God forbid Thob deletes them, but to move them to another time would be excellent. Next stop after them is an also often lame Trinite.

I need that firefight, and I'd hoped this would be covered with a roadblock or three, apparently, a bad idea(tm)
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Offline macguba

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #622 on: 24 Apr 2005, 14:34:52 »
I just meant that the objective sequence was no longer a bit screwy, which it was in v1.    I suspect it will be tweaked again anyway.

puff of code - yes good point, I suppose you're right.
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Offline THobson

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #623 on: 24 Apr 2005, 16:26:58 »
Just spent a frustrating hour or so - my cable connection died and I have now resurected my old dial up.  
Just a few comments:
- the mad women are back - no interaction yet
- mikero even though it will cost me another trigger and another radio slot you will have your mine toggle
- there is no way I am going to swap Irena for a soldier
- changing the skill through the mission is a great idea
- I am pissed off with the rain, yes is adds atmosphere and cut visibility - but only for the player
- I am in the process of adding another scene after Dourdan.  The player only finds out about this new scene if Sergei is clicked on in the reorganise screen, nothing gets added to the briefing, but other members of the squad keep reminding Alexi when they are clicked on in the reorganise screen - sometimes.  But it is begining to feel a bit linear, especially since the person you meet there gives you a map of Larche with a house marked, on arriving at the house the player gets a voice over, so weening down from full blown mission objectives.  The thought of something like this deep in the mission not directly linked to the thing before is appealing.  Basically I am trying to move the story and the player to the north.
- I am not going to make any serious decisions on the mission for a while.  I have been focussed on it too much for too long I am becoming fuddled (I am begining to ask some stupidly basic questions in the editing board, things I know the answer to because I have already used them extensively).  I need to take a break.
 
« Last Edit: 24 Apr 2005, 16:29:38 by THobson »

Offline macguba

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #624 on: 24 Apr 2005, 18:10:39 »
Irena would stay Irena, just in soldier's uniform.

Glad the mad are back.

Use the rain a lot early on, when you're not in combat much.   Use fog later on.

You need breaks.   I had several several month long breaks on Un-Impossible.
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Offline Mikero

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #625 on: 25 Apr 2005, 02:47:04 »
Quote
I need to teak a break

yes.

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I'm asking questions I know the answer to

I got the merest sniff of how exhausted you might be from playing and reporting on this mission. I was drained. And all I did was play the bloody thing. If you read Macs comments about borrowing the truck another way, he too, leaned back and went phew!

There are no showstoppers in this current version. There is no reason why you must breathlessly jump in and supply us all with something 'better' that works, it works, already.

I know from early 1.0 messages you got to this same point. Took a break, and turned a pigs's ear into a purse.

Do the same.

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Offline THobson

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #626 on: 25 Apr 2005, 07:22:05 »
Thanks both.  I will take a bit of a break.  I found I was making changes 'That'll do' rather than 'That's right', and it stopped being fun.

Back soon ;D

Offline THobson

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #627 on: 26 Apr 2005, 00:40:09 »
Okay - I now have a script that rearms any armoured unit that has no ammunition of any particular type.  It works exactly like standard OFP - you have to be in the amoured unit and the amoured unit has to be near an ammo truck (5t or Ural it doesn't matter - just like standard OFP).  It even has the same sound as standard OFP.  The are two differences between my script and the standard:

1.  Standard OFP will not rearm an armoured vehicle that has completley run out of any one of its types of ammo (except machine gun) - mine will.
2. Just so I can tell it is working my script gives the player the action to: 'Re-arm at Ammo Truck'  standard OFP is 'Rearm at Ammo Truck'  look for the hyphen

This has a 'That's right' feeling to it.

Short break ;D ;D ;D

Jee I was knackered yesterday.
 

Offline macguba

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #628 on: 26 Apr 2005, 11:31:26 »
Lol ... It's true I didn't expect you to be gone for long, but 17 hours ....
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Offline THobson

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #629 on: 26 Apr 2005, 14:06:18 »
Lol.  Actually it was less than that because it took me some time to get the re-arm script working.

The psychology of it is strange.  When I started making this mission I realised it was a huge mountain of work, but I took it bit by bit.  At each stage I took my time, thought about what I wanted, learnt what I needed to know and then did it right, so that I wouldn't need to come back to it unless I wanted.  I didn't look at the mountain I looked at what I wanted to do just then.  I certainly did not think about how long it was taking and if I didn't know something I researched it - I only asked when I was really stuck.  Then each round of beta testing suddenly opens up a whole new mountain.  This is right and proper but the suddenness of it made it feel urgent.  I just needed sometime away to get my head back to how it was.

Anyway - in addition to a much improved amour re-arm script and a neat way of dealing with surrendered soldiers the player decides to kill, I also have music players in all my vehicles.  I am not sure if I will keep it in the Vigny jeep.  I will have a run through and see how it feels.
« Last Edit: 26 Apr 2005, 15:48:20 by THobson »