(Review Completed) [SP] Abandoned Armies

[macguba]

is where you see 3 soldiers on a ridge skyline and think there's 3 squads up there.

Which reminds me of the old joke ..... The English army are invading Scotland.    Suddenly, on a nearby ridge, a hairy Scots warrior appears:  waving, mooning and shouting insults.     "Sergeant," says King Edward, "take half a dozen men and deal with that ruffian."    So off the sergeant goes.   When he approaches the dancing figure the watching army hear a distant shout of "oh shit" as the warrior vanishes over the skyline.    The sergeant and his gang follow him.

Shortly, the hairy Scotsman reappears.  "Ya boo sucks is that the best ye can do?"     Irritated, the King says "Captain, take a couple of dozen men and deal with that squalid pest."    So off the captain goes with his troop, there is another distant "oh shit" and Scotsman, Captain and troop all disappear over the skyline.

Some time later, the Scotsman is back again.   "Ha ha ha have ye got any more captains?"    "Right," says the King.   "I've had enough of this.  Colonel, take your regiment and put paid to this nonsense."     So off they go.   This time the cry of "Oh shit" has some real panic about it.    

Anyway, after a verrrrrry long time, a lone figure staggers onto the skyline.   It's not the Scotsman, its the colonel.   There is no sign of his regiment.    He crawls up the King ... his clothes in ruins, a dagger still sticking out of his leg, blood everywhere.     "It was a trap." he gasps.    "A trap?" said the King.   "Yes," replied the Colonel.   "There was two of them."

[THobson]

 ;D No prizes for guessing where you come from.

Repair convoy abandoned south of Saint Louis - was that you?  

Each side has a fully equiped support convoy: repair, ammo, fuel, ambulance - I think - I can't remember now if I kept in some probabilities of presence for some of the vehicles (certainly 100% for the repair truck).  After the fighting starts I just let the OFP engine decide what to do with them.  So in answer to your question: in part.  They turn up all over the place, sometimes I never find them.

Mikero - Illusion.  I understand, thanks.  I thought you thought I was playing sounds to simulate battles.  I actually do do this in two places.  If the player approaches either of the two civi groups before being told about them there will be sounds of M16s and AKs, then after a few second the sound of a bullet hitting a body (randomly selected of course) and the player dies.  It was the only way I could think of dealing with this without having yet another cutscene that no one will see.  All the other battle sounds are 'real'.

[Mikero]

No prizes for guessing where you come from.

His mother was a potato? Or a haggis?

<slap>

Mac, first heard that joke in use for the Arab Israeli war. You tell it better.

[macguba]

Och aye d'noo, it's a braw bricht moonlit nicht the nicht, east fife four, forfar five, billy connelly for pope, etc..

Never mind arab-israeli, I'm pretty sure that one was current when it was romans and hebrews.

Anyway ... we found this support convoy.    In perfect order, just completely abandoned.   I had, if you recall, the T80 with me.   We were in good order but took the opportunity of tidying up.    On attempting to leave the area, we got trashed.   Twice.    The third time we just waited for them and a squad of three (yes three) law loons, an officer and a machine gunner came over the skyline 100m.   And yes, I did get out of my tank to count the bodies.    I feel this is a little excessive.   Had we been in tank, apc and vulcan we would have been completely wiped out.     A little moderation on the numbers, skill, or ammo of random anti tank loons would be helpful here.

Regina Proeliorum, my next mission, is a tank mission and I spent a great deal of time playtesting it.    It turns out that you need surprisingly little opposition to make a tank mission fun.    Other tanks are no problem, that's what it all should be about.   (I wrote my armour strenghts spreadsheet to investigate all that:  it turns out that the data in that sheet, plus first shot advantage, pretty much define how tank battles turn out.)  

However, LAW and AT loons are different.   A few posts ago we discussed how tanks seem like godzilla when you fight them and wet paper backs when you are in them.   That, combined with the fact that your own tank crews are such vipers,  means that a very few law loons go a very long way.   Particularly when they are unexpected places.     (I deserved to get whacked at Larche.)    Remember too that AI rocket loons can reload faster than human, and AI tank commanders are much better at spotting rocket launches.    

Remember too that a law is nearly as powerful as a sabot round.    And a solder is a much smaller target than a tank.    If you look at some numbers and make a few reasonable assumptions, an rpg/law loon is about the same opposition as a T72.   Three law loons coming over the skyline is much the same as three T72s coming over the skyline.    

Meanwhile, I've trying to reorganise the rest of the squad.   One Abrams went south for repair, which it had, and I tried to bring it back along with the repair truck and the bradley, each with only a driver.   Both of those got stuck, the repair truck I suspect in the same place as the T80 always used to get stuck, so I ordered those lads to jump out and get into the vulcan we had left behind.   Meanwhile, the abrams joined us and healed at the bmp ambulance.   During this time the T80, on guard while I had my head buried in the map, reported and shot the occasional soldier.   Suddenly he blew up the repair truck ... these loons must have been the crews coming back.... AAAAARRRRGGGGGGGG.

Of course, from the retry, those wretched loons never turned up.     Brought 5 and 9 in the Vulcan up and left them at the convoy while the rest of us approached the airfield.   I took out the M2s at the gate from long range, then we tried to approach from the south.    We made seven attempts, using slightly different approaches and tactics each time.     Only once did I survive long enough to fire more than two rounds, and that was only because both of my other tanks were destroyed.    When I reversed a bit then tried to run due east towards the sea, so that we could approach closely from the beach ... we never even made it across the plain.    I don't even know how we made it in to the gateway (the save point for these attempts):    we were lucky to make it back to the convoy with all three wagons still moving.

[THobson]

LAW Loon count is clearly a problem at this stage of the game.  The initial squads are randomised, but this time the southrons have attacked the airport with armour and possibly also by now small groups of loons are joing up to make larger groups, but I do agree three together would take a lot of dealing with, especially if they are all fully armed.

If you get back that way I would appreciate a picture of something stuck in the 'tank paper'.  This is not something I have any recollection of seeing.


east fife and forfar athletic.  It is a long time since I heard those.

[macguba]

I tried to snap that was killed first.    It is my intention to try and get a good savegame just before the end so that I can go an explore anything you want me to check.

Meanwhile, here's a weird one.    The Bradley is still extant, but a couple of km to the south of us and unmanned.    

[macguba]

Oh fucking hell its getting worse.    We completed the repair operation no bother, then I put 5 and 9 from the vulcan into the repair truck and bmp ambulance.   The plan was to drive all the way round and come at the airfield from the north.    (we can't get to the east without a long drive anyway, and that's not a good approach really.   From the southwest will be just the same as the south.)     5, in the bmp ambulance, went mad.    He is driving south, just got past Houdan in spite of repeated orders to drive to various points a little bit nearer our location near Saint Louis.    Bizarre.

I tried again and he did the same thing.   The instant he got into that bmp he was off.   Put him in the ammo truck and he did what he was told.   Put 9 in the bmp and, as soon as he was given a move order, he was beetling away too.   That bmp is obviously haunted.

Well I put him in the ammo truck instead, but while we were faffing about getting into formation I was killed again by a law.    

I have to say I'm deeply frustrated now.   I've basically made no progress since last night (real time) other than get the armour from Chapoi to Saint Marie in one piece.    It's 17:00 in the game and the weather is overcast.   I would have given up on the armour long ago were I not testing:  I want to finish the mission in the tanks if I possibly can.      Are there still snipers in the woods overlooking the airfield?

[THobson]

The 'Rearm at Ammo crates' actions are added to the relevant wagon and removed when it is actioned.  Having it as an action for one of your team in the circumstances you describe is not acceptable, I really will have to deal with that, but I fear it will mean giving each wagon a name.  I do hope that the Bradley had not already been re-armed, otherwise I will have a real problem.

I now recall having times (not specifically with this mission) when I would give an order to a loon to go somewhere and they would head off in almost the opposite direction.  I didn't notice that it was related to them being in vehicles (but I didn't notice that was not either).  I just assumed it was OFP getting its sums wrong.  I don't recall the problem persisting in the way it seems to be here.

I apologise for the frustration and I do appreciate your perseverance
 

Are there still snipers in the woods overlooking the airfield?

Fraid so.

[macguba]

The Bradley was rearmed when I picked it up.   At least I presume it was, I did do it more than once but I suppose its possible in the saved run it wasn't.


In the end I gave up trying to reorganise and get out in one piece.   I just ordered everybody to leg it and as it transpired we lost only 5, driving the ammo truck.    Good riddance.    The frustration was threefold:  the usually trauma of loons and vehicles;  the extra weird stuff;  and the loose loons.   On one run, for instance, 5 was wounded and his wagon damaged by a lone officer who turned up, lay right beside my tank, and started shovelling bursts of AK fire into the lorry from 20m away.

We got clear and left 9 in the repair truck west of the fuel depot, which we cleared without trouble:  one law loon I saw, who got off one round which I think missed.    Moved up to the airfield and dealt with the T72.   Moved forward very slowly and started taking out loons.    There was a re-man script on the M2s which was very handy, I just used the machine gun on each new chap.    We got established on the airfield and took down the law loons as they ran towards us.   Well most of them anyway.  I was killed by the first hit on several occasions, presumably by CGs, but infinite savegames allowed slow progress.   The two Vulcans and another T72 provided a little amusement.    Eventually there was a burst of activity and my T80 was roasted.    Both the Abrams were still in good nick, so we circled around the buildings and took out the remaining infantry.   When all was quiet, and had been for a while, I drove myself from the south into the nest of buildings wherein I knew lurked Andropov.    As I was about to disembarque, 6 in the abrams called a T80 and a Bradley.    I rushed back out to help, but the abrams was was toast and although I got the tank somebody got me.    

The save point was awkward but after three attempts I got them.    The abrams gunner was killed but I was able to send teh driver back to the repair truck.   The two loons then crewed the tank but they hit trouble on the way back and 2 was killed.    Meanwhile I, having been wounded somewhere along the way, was crawing up to the tent where I dealt with the boss and two guards without trouble using my GlockS.   I think the boss was outside the tent on the runway side.   3 had to bail out of my tank because it was hit, then I was shot by a spetz natz just as I came out of the healing animation.

Just to put this all in context, I saved:

- short of the fuel depot
- after the fuel depot
- on getting onto the airfield safely
- twice (I think) more on the airfield
- before attempting to disembark
- before actually disembarking

I've gone back to most of them two or three times.     The biggest problem here has been the one hit wonders:  I'm almost always killed by the first hit, and being lead tank of course I'm usually first hit.   I'm dying almost every time the enemy fires.    So much for godzilla.

[THobson]

So Andopov didn't over commit in his attack on Chapoi then? ;D

There was a re-man script on the M2s which was very handy

It is handy, but it's not a script.  I just grouped the M2 with an infantry squad and that is what you get.  It's handy if you are in a tank - but it can be a real swine if you are on foot.

The biggest problem here has been the one hit wonders:  I'm almost always killed by the first hit, and being lead tank of course I'm usually first hit.  I'm dying almost every time the enemy fires.

 Even in an Abrams?  As soon as I take a hit I get it into reverse and hope that someone is sharp enought to get the bastard that hit me.

V1.11 currently has 44 saves available.  36 as starters plus 8 given along the way for doing things (not time related).  Even that might not be enough.

I think you are going to tell me this is too hard.

EDIT:
Just re-read your last post.  That really is a lot of effort mac.  Thank you.

[macguba]

So Andopov didn't over commit in his attack on Chapoi then?

;D ;D ;D

Picked up the retry just before the T80 and Bradley appeared.    The Brad dismounts get out and in again btw.   Tried it a few times till we all survived, and they didn't.    Ran north to pick up 9 and repair both vehicles.     Ran back onto the airfield and drove right up to the hospital.   The first heat did the trick.    At the second attempt we got off the airfield and back to the remains of the convoy.   I had hoped to heal but the bmp ambulance was gone!    Fuel truck still there.    Ammo truck (presumably still with 5's body was just north of Saint Marie so we rearmed there and tried to heal at the field hospital.   My driver got his medicine, but just after I'd got mine he decided to swing the tank round, destroying the tent and nearly crushing me.   Entirely my fault for parking too close but symptomatic of the day I've had.    We drive to Larche to find a field hospital in working order.    Nice arrangement of tents here btw.

So there we are.   There are five of us left.    2, 3, 6, 9 and me.   We are all well and we have two fully armed and repaired Abrams.  (Which reminds me, the other one needs gas.)     All objectives are ticked except destroy Andropov's army, but there can't be many left now.    This retry is at your disposal.    Andropov kicked the bucket at 17:50.   The weather is clear and its fully dark.     I'm now going back to the airfield to see if anybody has turned up.

[macguba]

Well that was easy.     A whole gang of loons running around.   None of them had laws so I just swung the mg back and forth till the surrender animations and text kicked in.   Sweet.

Cutscene:   very weak at the start but you know that.   We need shots of your family.    Take NVGs and binocs away from your squad and make them setUnitPos up.     Coloured text if it can be done.    Don't make the shot looking up Tatyana's skirt.     The big overview shots are mostly too far back.   Try a little movement to cover the whole scene, rather than being miles away.    Consider having shots of each character when saying who did the voice.

Casualties - 8 was around Chapoi I think, can't even remember.    5 above Saint Marie, a wandering loon/squad got her.   The other two in the T80 on the airfield.

As for the last part of the mission, yes it is too difficult.    On a technical level there were three problems.    Firstly the lack of a medic.  I know it was my fault because I got him killed, but he was killed because he was out on the wing.      Secondly, the weird stuff.   I suspect the length of the mission may be contributing towards this.    Thirdly just the cussedness of loons in general.    Fourthly the horrifying number of law/at loons.    

To be fair, I only stayed with the wagons because I was testing.   In a real play I would have taken them but abandoned them somewhere around Houdan, which was when it really started getting arsy.    The rest would not have been too hard:  I would have approached the airfield much as I did with v1, probably finding a vulcan on the way, then some snipers, doing a great deal of sniping myself and then sniping with laws at the remaining armour.     So it's not too hard per se, it's just too hard to use the wagons.   At least the way I played it.    Without tanks it would be impossible - you would have no hope at all in APCs.

[macguba]

Here is where the T80 always got stuck at Dourdan.    I'm put the Abrams in the right place and orientation.  Hope its not too dark to see.  

It was very strange because there is space for a tank to get through the gap, even without having to knock down the tents.

I suspect 44 saves will be about right.    I did various calculations and reckoned that it should be somewhere between 24 and 48.    It took me 12 hours or so of game time, which wasn't fast - I did some exploring and deliberately didn't start the war until I had to.    48 would be one every 15 minutes which you can't really complain about.

Oh yes, I forgot to say one of the reasons the end was hard.   It was the randomness.     You were never safe.  At any moment you could be attacked from any direction.   Sure, this is fine to an extent, but you can't keep an all round defence the whole time so you simply are going to get bushwhacked regularly.   Which eventually ceases to be amusing.   It's fine if y ou are on foot - you can huddle in some bushes while you look at the map - but when you are in vehicles, which are very obvious, very vulnerable and constantly require repairs, ammo or fuel (and from which it's hard to get chaps healed) it's no good at all.      This is a point I've made before.   These random squads running from A to B because of their guard waypoints or whatever should be constrained, if its at all possible, to more obvious routes or places.   Have a think about that.    It will certainly be impossible to remove the random contacts completely - and I'm not sure that would be a good thing anyway - but if you can cut them down a bit ....

If you really want the player to be able to tank the end - and it's a nice idea - you will have to reduce the law loons considerably.   This will obviously have implications for the force balance of the war, unless you have a removeWeapon/Mag script which kicks in once one side has been defeated.   The player will never know.

I don't really know what to say in overall comments.    From reading them you probably have a better impression of my overall view than I do.    The most important thing is that your objective of creating a world has been a resounding success.    Such work as remains to be done - and there is plenty of it because it is such a big mission - is now mainly cosmetic.   The changes from v1 have considerably improved things.  

Having played it twice you will appreciate that I'm not necessarily in a rush to play it again when the next version comes out.   I will test it of course, but in the misson editor and perhaps running a cheated version (invincible or something, with 4x) if you make one.   Also I'll be happy to run around this savegame and look at anything that needs checking.     I haven't commented on northron bases but maybe that should wait till next version anyway.

I tend to say well done and so one when noobs need encouragement.    But this really is well done.   This is a remarkable mission.   :thumbsup:

[Mikero]

>tanks

I dont enjoy them as gameplay, almost all missions. They're either very one sided against the loons, or, my squad goes wobbly. Only time I've played them enjoyably is tank on tank.

In this misson it's otherwayround, too many rocket loons to save my backside from roasting / visibility question marks with ai armour in fog.mist / and woeful navigation skills from my ai

But, thematically, i think they should be used by player at the last battle Northron or Southron. Without them, I'm left in a repeat experience of crawling my poor battered body through just-another, heavily armed camp.

For me, it would have been a change of pace, theme, (which is done everywhere else in this mission), to clean out the airport using them.

A sort of refreshing finale where things were becoming easier and easier to accomplish.

Just my thoughts, now.

For me, what I actually thought during game play was the author was a cunning man. Everyone rushes to these beasts to play them as if they are the answer to the universe, it's traditional gameplay. I thought the author had deliberately introduced a crippler to discourage me from doing so.

[THobson]

mac

This is a remarkable mission.

You have made my day/week/month/year.  Thank you.

Bloody well done.  Thanks.  I guess I do have a good understanding of how you were feeling about it.  I think up to clearing Chapoi you were enjoying it, after that it steadily became less fun and more a duty to complete.  The fact that you continued I very much appreciate.  In fact you and mikero are both bloody heroes.  You both have done the mission twice, in deliberately different ways and have come up with a lot of issues and ideas that have really challenged me.  The result will be a much better mission.  What more could a mission maker ask for?
Indeed I do understand that playing it twice would reduce your appetite for playing it again.  Testing the next version in the mission editor, or in some sort of cheat mode would probably be more help to me at that stage anyway, so if you would do that, that would be great.

one of the reasons the end was hard.  It was the randomness

You understand the benefits and the difficulties here.  By this stage there has been an unscripted war between two large armies that stared off with randomly located groups each with a random make up of loons, and while the armies are battling it out there is also the irritation of a tiny band of lunatics plugging away at them and pulling their forces in different directions.  But then I think: wouldn't it really be like that towards the end, the complete chaos of war?  On the balance of the units - I will certainly look again at the law/rpg/at numbers.  I think the AA is about right - sometimes the choppers play a significant role, other times they don't.

I'm sorry mac the picture of the stuck tank is a bit dark,  I put it in Photoshop and boosted the levels and couldn't make anything out.   It's fine - if you are puzzled about what is happening there then the picture probably wouldn't help me anyway.  I have had a scout round the tents at Dourdan and can find nothing obvious. - The ai wouldn't be squeamish about running over the corpses of dead civilians I suppose?

You are right I am aware of the need to improve the Intro and the final scene - there were just so many other changes from v1.00 that I did not want to wait until I had done all that as well.  And now I know about camera.sqs I may re-look at all the scenes.  Did the zoom out from the dead members of your squad work?  I know you suggested to put them all together somewhere as if it were a few hours later, but I felt would be more poignant to see them where they fell, and as I have no idea where that will be any static shot could have a wall, tree, vehicle in fact anything in the way so could be crap.  I make all the living ones CARELESS before they are seen - I guess after what they have been through they can't believe it is all over.  They still seem AWARE for me.

I appreciate the offer to do some exploring to see what is where, but honestly I can't think of anything that is more than idle curiosity on my part - I have no preconceived ides about what should be anywhere.  I have appreciated your screenshots.  I am glad you captured what must be a very rare event southron POWs surrounded by armed northron soldiers.  The shot of the two dead choppers was a puzzle, I take your word for it that they shot each other down, I hope so, the only other times I have seen two together like that is when they have collided and I thought I had stopped that happening by giving them different heights to fly at.  But heh if in the height of battle they bumped into each other - so be it.  I do know they can fly around for days if necessary without a collision.

Any comments on the previously hot issue of the av/ap mines?  I will keep them in for the next version and see if they cut the mustard then, if not then they are out.  Changes already made for the next version:
A nice full screen dialog page of instructions
The safety feature of an action at the top of the player's list that will give a hint telling the player how many of each type are left.
A voiceover explanation when they are found, and they are now only found inside the first hut the player enters.
AV mines can now be created out of any of: any anti-tank, anti-air missile/satchel charge/mortar/grenade.  AP mines can still only be made from a Handgrenade

mikero
tanks

For me, it would have been a change of pace, theme, (which is done everywhere else in this mission), to clean out the airport using them.

I was trying to give the player exactly that option should they choose to use it.  I certainly wanted to avoid forcing :

a repeat experience of crawling my poor battered body through just-another, heavily armed camp.

For me, what I actually thought during game play was the author was a cunning man. Everyone rushes to these beasts to play them as if they are the answer to the universe, it's traditional gameplay. I thought the author had deliberately introduced a crippler to discourage me from doing so.

Well as you now know - not so cunning I'm afraid.  At no stage in this mission do I attempt to second guess the player.  What I have tried to do is to create a realistic environment, have things behave realistically, give the player lots of options - and then just get out of the way and not interfere.  (I adopt the same approach to my garden btw - though I now suspect my wife of paying people to come and work on it.)

There are a lot of scripts for this mission but take away the cutscenes, the fixes (keeping the convoys and patrols running, re-arming empty tanks etc.) and ensuring the loons behave sensibly towards the end - there is very little left.  What I wanted was the randomness and chaos of war.  There is a downside to this and that is, in a random world just about anything is possible, so the wonderful battle noises you had with choppers doing good stuff on your behalf - that may not happen for some other player and they might walk away from the mission with a very different view.

I have been thinking on the tank issue.  I recall when doing mac's Un-Impossible mission that shortly after I had captured an Abrams the mission immediately became very difficult - to the extent that I joked in one of my posts that if mac wanted to make the mission truly impossible he could have given me an Abrams from the start.  Not difficult because it wouldn't do what I wanted it to do (I was the only occupant most of the time so there would be no excuse for that), but difficult because of all the AT/AA loons about (as an aside it was here that I found out that OFP is sufficiently smart that it will use AA rockets against armour).  Then I realised that the main advantage of the tank was its long range weapon and there was I getting killed in short range melees with infantry.  Once I changed my tactics and kept my distance it then became much less painful.  So at first I admit I wondered if the problems were down to tactics.  I now see that they are not, but I don't know what I can do about it.  I have taken tanks from Chapoi to attack the northern airbase and I have taken tanks down to attack Chapoi and not had any of the problems described here so the problem has a random element to it as well.

What would help me is knowing how serious this is.  Mission killer/major re-think serious? or just pain in the backside serious?  I can adopt mac's suggestion of removing AT ammo from the loons for the final battle - what I have no idea how to fix is the loony routefinding of the ai.

mac and mike
When ever I reply to either of you I usually fell it is not adequate and doesn't reflect the time and energy you have put in.  All I can say is that I really do appreciate it all.  Thanks you have both been fantastic.