(Review Completed) [SP] Abandoned Armies

[tudders]

tudders:
You have just been hit by the large savegame bug.  Are you running ECP or somesuch?

No addons at all - although as everyone seems to have this problem i guess it sin't down to me  

And there was me hoping to 'waste' my time on 1.22 - i await a fix wwith great anticipation.

[Planck]

The woman in the loft thing now works fine.

Another thing, I have a civvy woman sitting in the civvy truck all by herself.

Now I know why '7' keeps boarding the truck every time I use your dialog to speak to my team......off he goes and boards the truck......whereever we happen to be.......unless I order him back to formation.


Planck

[XCess]

Random thought you p[robably won't implement but it would be nice to have some higher ranking officers, well guarded, some that move around in a UAZ or somesuch that if killed will lower the skill of the armies and decrease their searching range, and the range at which they can call for backup.

Would need some way to make them clearly Defined from the rest of the army... Stamenov could have police officers... Adropov the black dressed civilians?

Ofcourse, killing them or not would be a tactical decision depending on how you want to play. If you want to cause trouble and set up fireboxes for the enemy to run into then you wouldn't want them dead. If you want to cut them off from each other and deal with different areas one byone you would.

Meh probably too much work and too much lag but I like the idea.

[KyleEasterly]

I just re-tried it.

I approached the mountain lodge, did the cutscene there where people join me. Listened to radio message. Saved.
Unloaded guns from police jeep to ammo crate, gave #5 a m16.
All boarded in pv3s.
Drove to the little brown house with the civilians + res. guy in it.
Got out of vehicle before the cutscene and approached on foot this time.
Did the cutscene, the civilans +res start following me (not join group but follow.)
We all get back in car. "Wait for us to get in", then "we're all inside".
Drive back to lodge.
Disembark about 50m before the lodge (riiiight as its visible in the haze), and approach on foot.
I'm able to walk all the way inside, still not cutscene.
We get back in the truck and I drive away a grid square then come back in. I do the same thing from a few different directions.
I say screw it and mount an assault on Arudy with the civilians following me. For some reason my group doesn't shoot a thing, and just gets in the way... I think I need to tell them to engage/fire at will (i took them into aware mode already.)

And, this was after restarting the mission from the beginning.
I do get an error, or warning, whenever I load the mission about some KEGhouse-something or another, I'll take a screenshot if I try it again. I think its some problem I've got with the editor update addon.

[THobson]

XCess:
Wonderful idea and not too much work - I actually enjoy it.  But my priority now has to be to get what I have stable and smooth.

KyleEasterly:
Interesting.  It sounds to me like the wooden house is not being placed in your mission - it is a building I got using the editor upgrade.  I use a different method to trigger the cutscene in v1.23 which should be here soon.  But if you don't have the destroyed wooden building some of the dialogue will not make sense, and the civis will have nowhere to hide.

Planck:

The woman in the loft thing now works fine.

About time too.

I have a civvy woman sitting in the civvy truck all by herself.

Now I know why '7' keeps boarding the truck every time I use your dialog to speak to my team......off he goes and boards the truck......whereever we happen to be.......unless I order him back to formation

I despair!  If that is Houdan_WomanClone then she has survived an unassignVehicle, a deleteVehicle and a setPos [0,0,0] in that order.  This will not be fixed in v1.23

[Fragorl]

Thanks, THobson, for your complements.

I predicted you would get some company at your ambush point.

I hadn't appreciated just how close I was to a major base, until I went exploring....

It is unfortunate that driving over the soldiers is so easy to do and so safe.  An OFP feature that I am not sure I can do anything about.  It happens mostly if you are in a neutral or friendly vehicle (the jeep will seem friendly to Stamenov's soldiers)

Ah, this would explain why the jeep and repair truck were generally less noticed than my T80. Well well. I might use this information to my advantage when I attack Stamenov

Interesting that you should make the depraved monster on NATO's side, not the Russians' as usually happens... or then again maybe I'm reading too much into it. After all, there are only two sides to choose from.

One thing puzzled me about LaT, why did you take the repair truck and not the ammo truck?  Practicing for the later versions where there is no ammo truck?

Naw, don't forget I was still a one man band at this stage , plus i was anxious to leave LaT as soon as possible (and rightly so as it filled up with soldiers on my way out), and I had no real need of the ammo truck yet.

I am glad, as the author I wrote it and said it and wondered if would be effective or just naff.  I am looking for things to cut out to reduce lag and these voiceovers are on the list to think about. Wonderful

I doubt the voiceovers are causing any lag, the only thing they'll be impacting on will be mission filesize surely? At any rate, they are sounding less and less naff, and give the game character. Preserve them in my opinion.

My benchmark is 7000; i think this is relatively high. I see plenty of others with lag as bad as mine, or worse. The lag seems script-induced, I would say. I will hopefully get a chance to dePBO shorty and see what I can see.

[THobson]

Fragorl:

Interesting that you should make the depraved monster on NATO's side, not the Russians' as usually happens...

This is deliberate.  I think the Russians generally get a bad deal out of mission writers.  Also the US policy of 'my enemy's enemy is my friend' has got them into bed with some very unsavoury people in the past.  EDIT: My memory was failing.  The north/south east/west pairing just happened early on and it was only later I decided the Stamenov was to be a depraved monster.  The fact that  Russians usually get a bad deal from mission writers is why I chose Sergei to be a Russian.

I doubt the voiceovers are causing any lag

It is the trigger to cause the voiceover.  But since I have cut it down from one trigger for each voiceover to one trigger for all of them (I just move the trigger) I think you are right.

7000 is kick arse good.

There is one script that is killing the mission - I have dealt with it in v 1.23.  If you do de-pbo the mission the script is TransferFlag.sqs

[THobson]

Okay.  I have made some changes.  I have played the mission through to talking to the woman at Dourdan having collected al the civis and I now have a full team.  Along the way I periodically saved and exited the game and then went back in with no problems.

Get v1.23 here

Large Savegame bug:  I have removed the names of about 60 objects and also removed about 60 markers, each of which is named.  The only loss of functionality is when the mission is run in de-bug mode - but you wouldn't be doing that would you?
I could do more here, but I have reached the point where the next step would involve a major restructuring with the high probability of bugs being introduced.  It is now a case of diminishing returns.

Lag:  When a flag carrying squad leader is killed the flag now does not transfer to the new squad leader.  In v1.22 it did.  When I wrote the script I suspected it might be a lag demon, but then I forgot and only remembered when I was going through the scripts tonight.  This change is a pity but it does have a major impact on lag.

Other changes:
-Skill levels start off lower and increase more slowly.  Skill increase is also linked to the kills the team have made, as well as achieving the obvious objectives.  (In my test just now I felt the skill levels might still be rising too quickly)
-Alexi cannot change a flag until he has met Karl
-Dropped the warning shot from Ruslan when Alexi arrives at the lodge.
-Assorted other stuff, mostly from Mikero's excellent posts.

To Do:
Much the same list as before (see post #1015).
Items that are on the list to go if lag remains a problem (in order):
- environmental sounds (not the wolves - the other stuff)
- several voice overs.  I may lose the ‘ this looks like a prison… ‘ voice over anyway.
- less buildings fences etc at Chapoi - I might get an additional 1 to 2 fps from that.

Other points - In my test tonight I found that reorganising the team could result in them deciding to run off somewhere (I later found that two of them wanted to get back in the truck - Planck!).  Also there were periods of mega lag for a few seconds.  I have never experienced this before but macguba did mention it on an earlier version.  This mega lag started after Pavel (the medic) joined me when he was at the lodge and I was at Houdan.  I just wait it out and after a few seconds it clears up.

Mission building I can cope with it is this black magic stuff that is taking its toll on my sanity.

[Planck]

If that is Houdan_WomanClone

Well.....I think this woman is a blonde, the one in Houdan was.....I think dark haired.
But my memory might be faulty.


Planck

[Mikero]

@Plank

the way you explain your savegame bug gels nicely with Thob's theory.

when you 'resume', you are taken from a snapshot from the 'continue.fps' the one that is created by the engine when , if ever, you do an abort. this fps is not updated if you're dead, only if you truly abort while alive. Thus, mostly, the parameters in _that_ file are 'ok', eg there were no thobson scripts running at that time of abort, if there were , you would be unable to resume, also.

reading your post, assuming you *always* crash if you do a retry load then that file, the autosave.fps was corrupted at the time you did a 0-0 radio command (save). From then on, it stays corrupted, but only comes in evidence if you retry from it. (you don't, you resume)

same comment on cheatsave, this file is the so-called save.fps, same comment, it may, or may not, be corrupted.

So, not telling you to suck eggs, i'm putting my thoughts in order here, and your comment that the bug was intermittent, now appears not to be, there's a consistency here, depending on which xyx.fps file you're loading from. At least, that's the way I'm reading your latest post. That if you consistently load from one of them, you will consistently get a crash. That's the important bit, because if otherwise, that extraneous material like ICQ in background is chewing up system resources (causing the bug) we're all in deep doodoo


Thob, have played missions where the save/ cheatsave keys are monitored and prevented (I don't know how). You would be able to monitor for this and prevent the action if any of your loops are running. This fix would *permanently* solve any issues with variables, they no longer matter, they just couldn't be saved if they're being used 'at the time'.

[Fragorl]

To add to the discussion:

I'm not entirely sure that the flag_transfer is the culprit; you mentioned that you added it in v1.22 and took it out in v1.23. I'm still playing v1.20 as always.

At any rate, I don't think a single script can do all that much dammage unless it is creating masses of objects in a very short time, all the time. Even if you had several breakless checks like this:

#loop
? (!alive flagowner flag) : goto "next"
goto "loop"

I doubt that they would produce the kind of lag that people are experiencing. It sounds like more of a combination of many scripts

[Mikero]

@henderson

type 0 then 1

wow never knew that, thank you.

@Xcess/THob

Bloody hell - you are really kicking up a storm.  This is now an unusual scenario and I am interested in how it will play out.  Both leaders are dead and (I think) a relatively small amount of damage done to each army.  It might not be easy.  I may need to make some changes as a result of this.

for me, he's playing a fantastic play alone mode. Admittedly poor squence triggers in not collecting civilians and blah, but I started similar before I got savegame bug and I think, imho, your changes will need to be _very_ small. They might just need to be context switches of what the player has not achieved, rather than any dramatic change to game play. If we want to take on two armies by ourselves as Xcess is doing, let us.

@Fragorl

quite obviously behind the rest of you all

The fascinating thing about this mission (one of many) is there doesn't in fact appear to be any such thing. There are so many sideshows going on that entire pages of forum can be devoted to a single tangent like Pows at le Port, then, 16 pages later after we've all finished, someone mentions tanks at the lighthouse. Ook? Off we go, another mission starts and we are all behind THAT player.

>Lag

agreed in spades. However, what I've learned to do is to keep away from it. The trouble spots for me are T3 and Larche, each time, every time. It's hardly a final answer, but it does change the game back to being playable. The moment I detect heaviness, I'm out of there, no matter what. It is almost inevitable that it's a warning to me, that not only will the mission become unplayable, i'd be dead in minutes even if it were. Am actually using it to my advantage to play as Guerrilla hit and run, rather than Resistance.

>Vulcan

for me, this is a bug. It has unfair zoom against you IN THE RAIN. It is rain, that causes unfair play and I believe Hob has prevented this in later versions. Not mist, not fog, rain, is a cheat. My experience armour wise chapoi, very similar to you.

>Civilian Jeep.

You can run over as many loons as give you a thrill *until* armour detects you. (in the jeep). From that point on, all enemy is aware of you, including loons. (I have not shown such care to loon wellbeing after I ran over them as you did ;D)

>I'd just raised the average IQ

nope. Not until you are fired on, in the jeep, by armour.


>Lag at Dourdan with T72 and T80

You'd knocked out almost all. The lag I believe is caused by a chopper nearby which you may not have heard/noticed.

>Tanks

I've always been against playing them, they're so dreadfully dull. You either get blown or blow everything else around. But this mission is different, and almost all posts I've read from everyone who chooses to use a tank, has invloved a great deal of thought and cunning on their part. It's no walkover. I think the mix of rocket loons against you is just right to PREVENT players using them in their usual, very dull and unexciting fasion. So I hope Thob does nothing to alter the current balance.

>1st civil attacking lloons cutscene

yes. thob has or had a mob of them v close to that mountain, direct east of hut. The were just standing there. Depending on weather, they could 'see' you, or couldn't. I have encountered your description once only.

>You'll do alright, men.

precisely. You'll do ok without them, but doing with them is immersive (well for me it is). I care greatly that I've got various personalities doing what is 'right' for them. Lookouts, snipers, medics, whingers. A total game change from feeling satisfied when you finish a mission, to only feeling satisfied if every single one of them survive. It's a total downer eg if Irena, or Sergei bite a bullet. THAT is probably the single biggest hidden storyline in this whole thing.

[Mikero]

@Thob

please keep the voiceovers IF you drive over them, rather than only if you walk over them. I prefer this in general, even at Vigny where you crippled it.

If you decide to take out *some* voiceovers for *some* bodies (because of trigger lag) imho, you have to take out ALL voiceovers for all bodies (except Tatyana) otherwise you'll get bug reports. You'd also have to increase their eye candy positions, because as you have them now, it's part of the fun, hunting for them.

@Xcess
>lowering enemy skill level.

I am utterly against this. Not because it's a bad idea, it's a clever idea. The problem is, I just loathe missions where ai is too stupid to be bothered with. God knows, we get enough of them in Beta, don't we?

I LOVE clever ai, jaw dropping sneaky tactics. I had one encounter with them, this mission, where the buggers were copyig my tactics exactly, and I thought I was being clever!
--------

@KyleEasterly

>building and editor

this is a definite addon bug that I'm all too familair with. I suspect you're using editor175, or worse, LocMea.pbo

Regardless, it's an editor clash. You have another addon in your folder that super-imposing it's class over that given in Barron's or Kegety's 102.

Best bet is clean them all out and only have editor102 as the only unofficial addon in there.

all of this can be prevented for this mission and others, have a read of this , and most importantly, this

Edit:

@Thob

>woman clone

you can easily test this by getting in back of that EMPTY civil. She's generally 'there'.

[XCess]

Lowering skill when youkill leaders and/or generals (although Stamenov doesnt hav any generals so maybe the whole idea falls apart here) Would simulate the loss of morale that their leaders have been killed. Not lowering it too much but jus enough to give you some extra objectives to weaken their armies.

More important is a lower searching and reinforcment range to simulate chaos in the ranks as you take down their seargents one by one and communication falls apart.

[Mikero]

@Thob

sorry, the civil truck test is, you load up 2 soldiers into truck so that they occupy the front, you get in back, and there she is.

@Fragorl

bench of 7000 is ginormous, huge, from a computer bought in the last few days, it's enormous.

If >you< are having lag, its a poor video card coupled with your already mentioned points about script loops.

@Thobson

>get 1.24 here

about time. What kept you.

>Voicerovers = lag

Every time you mention removing a single one of these by blood chills. It is the sounds, side tangents, and little details that add to this mission as an overwhelming experience.

>Looks like a prison'

I *really* hope you dont' this trigger will only happen for one in ten players and only once in three mission plays. It is this, that makes the mission playble over and over and over and over again, please dont lose sight of what you created.

> Less buildings (objects)

why the hell not. This is nuclear war. this is winter rain, this is a lack of everything, a starkness, a fear of starvation. Starkness is a good thing. Why is Chapoi so 'neatly' sandbagged. Why aren't there huge holes, missing bits, everywhere. ( A statement more to encourage you than a complaint)

YOU #@*_*$#@_(*_*$#@@$

just figured out Goisse. YOu rotten sneaky mongrel.

>MeagLag at Medic join time.

If you check carefully, this is when the chopper(s) AND the northron tanks are coming via Larche down your valley near the 2nd civil hut. Each time, every time, just a question of when, but this way, they always come.

If you smack those tanks UP the Larche valley on extreme west of that valley (the climb) they aren't there to induce lag at T3.

>Reorganise script

Another 'interesting' feature of this is if you put your loons all over the map (I had some guarding the LaP crossroad with M2 Jeeps) they instantly come back to where you are   . A nice why of saving them from extinction.