[SP/CAMP] Black Lands

[Undeceived]

(double post)


Btw, did you notice the sniper and soldier on the towers behind the HQ?




EDIT:
Replaced the LMG with a proper DMR with that high-tech scope. You were right. This is MUCH better!

[Gruntage]

I didn't notice that guy, and I'm sure there are plenty others I didn't see. I suppose knowing the range would have been useful as well. Maybe a range finder? Maybe not; it depends on how much you want to give the player.

But this kinda comes back to what I said about the 'whack-a-mole' style: trying to spot and kill everyone within a few seconds, and there's bound to be that one guy I didn't see who manages to kill the spy. Then I have to reload and do the whole thing again, and probably miss a different guy. Also what made it more annoying was the fact that these guys have body armour, so if I'm aiming for centre of mass then it will take a few rounds per guy, and that's time lost. By the time I've killed one guy, the spy is dead. Maybe the different rifle will yield different results for me.

Unfortunately I'm not as fast at aiming as I used to be in my youth; years of not playing FPS games has taken its toll  So this kind of gameplay just doesn't do it for me. To be honest I don't know if I'd have taken this route if I was designing the mission. I personally think that just getting the guy in the compound is challenging enough, then playing as the spy, get the documents without being spotted. I suppose thats what I'd have done.

Aside from this, the mission is very good and it has everything a stealth mission should have, and more. But this part is very much the fly in the soup.

Interestingly enough, before I found out that this was in fact not the last mission of the campaign, I actually thought this mission would play out very differently. The way the intro cinematic was going, I was convinced that the player would somehow get caught by the Russians in an attempt to help get the spy to safety, and to get the documents to NATO. A kind of sacrifice. That would make an interesting cliffhanger. But, the story is set 

[Undeceived]

Thanks, Gruntage. Sorry for the late reply, I'm super busy in RL atm.

I have improved this part a bit already. And, as I said, the DMR makes a big difference which I didn't expect at all, tbh. Good idea.

[Clayman]

So I just decided to join the party over here, too.
Gruntage, I really REALLY love your idea for Petrovka Strike, that the player has to choose whom to rescue. I totally agree that it would add so much depth to the mission / campaign and it perfectly fits into the storyline and the overall dark atmosphere. Undeceived, there is no way that you don't add this!  

Alright, so let's start a small brainstorming and see if we can't come up with something that isn't too complicated to implement.
Finding a suitable location is no problem imho. There is another village east of Devil's Castle, Gvozno(?). From our route sniper position -> Devil's Castle it's about the same distance as Grishino, just in a different direction. Therefore the player can't reach both locations in time.
The bigger problem could actually be finding a group member who is expandable, but could as well survive. Let's see, who is in our team? Sergej, Miroslav, Tomek, Kamil, Viktor and Petja. Did I forget someone? Miroslav is no option because of Resurrection and we need Sergej for that other mission later on. (I have an idea for that mission too, btw. I'll PM you later with details.) Viktor is too new, the player won't have any relation with him, and he's too unimportant anyways. And Petja, well, after his betrayal earlier I guess most wouldn't care about his fate at all. So we have either Tomek or Kamil. Actually I think Kamil would be an interesting option, as an ex-SF guy he might be the most valauble member of my team.
On the other hand, the more I think about it, maybe Miroslav wouldn't be that bad either. Just that he doesn't get killed if I help the civies, but instead he gets captured and shows up again in Resurrection. In this case the question would be, what happens to Tomas that he ends up captured, too? Maybe he could visit Lucie's grave all alone and run into a Red Star patrol or something...
Also what are the overall consequences of each action? If he rescues Miroslav (or whichever teammate it shall be) they could try to help the civies afterwards only to find them all killed. Maybe only have Jegor alive, if he is important for the further story (not sure about that atm). And if he helps the civies instead?
Well, all in all it's not that easy to get everything right, but I do think it's totally worth all the hassle. Maybe you guys have some ideas, too?

I'd like to post more feedback here, but I'm really having a hard time writing all this in english and I can provide much more detailed feedback in german. So everything else later / tomorrow via PM.

[Undeceived]

You guys won't settle for less as it seems. Seems that I will have to tear up some missions to get this awesome idea implemented (not only Petrovka Strike). And goodbye to my goal to finish this around the end of the year.

This is shaping up to something that I'm really starting to like and is more and more fitting into the "plot logic". I think the deciding factor is who is going to be the "happy one" that can die when the player chooses to save the civilians. And, Clayman, your idea with Miroslav is great! What about this (it's not perfect down to the last detail yet…)?

• Miroslav and a new guy (not Petja) come along with Tomas and Kamil at the mission start instead of Tomek. Tomek (and Viktor) go to Petrovka to ID the colonel.
• Miroslav and the new one stay in Grishino, Tomas and Kamil go for the Colonel and so on.....
• If the player later decides to help the civilians, Miroslav and the new guy are captured by the Red Star. To worsen the loss, the new guy is shot right on the spot while Miroslav is taken away after getting beaten up. The civilians in the other Village have heavy casualties but a small group (Jegor and some other men) survive because of the player's help.
• If the player chooses to save Miroslav, then the whole other civilian village is wiped out. A small group of men from another village (relatives and friends) are out for blood and meet the player's group somewhere down the road (Jegor and the others).
• If the player saves Miroslav, then the campaign will proceed as it is now. Miro moves out to pick up Sergej and he and Tomas are captured by the RS. In the cutscene, Miro is executed.
• If Tomas chooses to save the civilians in their village (and Miro is captured), then in the next mission one of Jegor's men declares himself ready to pick Sergej up (he's absolutely willing to help where he can, even if it's just a simple taxi job, because Tomas helped them back there in their village). The car brakes down, the guy calls Tomas for help, he and Tomas get captured and the guy gets killed as he's so stupid to try to run away. Tomas is knocked out and meets Miroslav in the cutscene where Miroslav is executed.

[Undeceived]

The downside of this is that Miroslav is killed either way.

[mathias_eichinger]

Due to a severe shortage of time, I can only now follow up with Death Came Upon Me.

The intro is perfect like a movie, as is the briefing. The mission itself throws up errors pretty often, and my main gripe is that the rifles are missing from those soldiers I shot just seconds before! Maybe this is a bug, but else it would be a cheap trick. 
Armed with just a Makarov I never ventured close to the broken down UAZ but went straight to my hideout, where another perfectly executed outro kicked in.

[Undeceived]

Hi Mathias, are you sure that the rifles really are gone? Sometimes when you open the dead soldier's inventory, the rifle isn't there because it landed some cm away.

Thanks a lot for testing it!

Armed with just a Makarov I never ventured close to the broken down UAZ but went straight to my hideout, where another perfectly executed outro kicked in.

That's fine. The UAZ is just a side-quest that gives you information and some special equipment (NV goggles), but it is not needed to finish the mission.

[Clayman]

The downside of this is that Miroslav is killed either way.

I agree, it is pretty odd that you save Miroslav, just to watch him being killed in the very next mission. Such a vital decision must have a noticeable effect on the story. Therefore Miroslav is not a good option imho.
So what about either Kamil or Tomek? I can't remember how important both of them are for the rest of the campaign. Either way, I don't see the need to introduce a new guy to the team just to get him killed during the mission.

[Undeceived]

Yeah, I think you're right... I'll check it out if I could sacrifice either Tomek or Kamil. The problem is that both of them (especially Kamil) have lots of dialogs in the remaining missions which I would have to adapt (either with someone else talking or not at all).

It's really itching me to go with Kamil as he's (as you said) the most skilled member of the group. Seeing him dying would definitely have a big impact on the player. He would perhaps think of replaying the mission but then realize that it's sooo long... so maybe he'd have to live with this huge loss.

BUT...... (damn - I'm noticing this while writing) Kamil is going with Tomas to kill the colonel. As he's this killing machine, it doesn't make sense to leave him behind in Grishino. So it seems Tomek is the only one left to take.
The idea is so good that I'd even agree to adapt the whole further story to it.

One remaining question: How does the player get to know about the incidents in the civilian village?

And one other thought (problem): If there are these two choices (Tomek or the civilians): Why wouldn't Tomas and Kamil split up - Tomas going to one village and Kamil to the other one?
Damn.......
The only way I can think of to prevent this would be that Tomas goes alone to kill the colonel. But why should he do this without Kamil?
Or they both go to kill the colonel but only Tomas goes back. But why?

So many obstacles in the way of this...

[Clayman]

I was already thinking about the Kamil problem. There must be a good reason for him to stay in Grishino. So far I couldn't think of anything plausible. It just makes no sense for him to not join Tomas on the sniper mission. While it would be the most interesting choice dramaturgy-wise, it wouldn't work out in any logical way. And overall I think that Kamil is too important for the further story anyways. So in the end it all comes down to Tomek being the chosen one.

How the player gets to know about the second village is a good question I haven't thought about so far.  Maybe Gruntage can tell us, after all it was his idea. 

Why they don't split up is easy: There are too many enemies in both villages for only one guy. They need to work together to stand a chance. 

[Gruntage]

Wow you guys have given me a lot of reading to do 

Alright so it's been a little while since I played that mission and it's been a few days since I last played the campaign, so bear with me. How do they find out about the village? Admittedly when I first came up with the idea I thought that the information could come from Nemec in some way. Would it have been possible to pick up radio traffic? Maybe thats a bit implausible.

We have a couple of guys in the colonel's village don't we? Think Miroslav is there and he does the flash thing with his camera. I wonder if perhaps they overheard them say the names of 2 villages? 2 villages as a reprisal for the colonel's killing. Let's say Miroslav overhears this, and reports it to Tomas over the radio. Tomek is at the castle if I recall, so perhaps he decides to take it upon himself to rescue the folks in Grishino (Is that the name of the closest village?). Maybe the guy is panicking, and he's not thinking clearly...so he goes knowing full well that he's going to be overwhelmed. But he's going to try anyway.

Tomas at this point is probably yelling at Tomek not to do anything stupid or throw his life away. Tomek could respond by saying he's not going to let these people die because of us. Already we're creating alot of drama and panic which is exactly what we want in this situation. Tomek is made to look more meaningful in this as well, it makes him look heroic (or stupid  ). So, this makes the decision difficult for the player.

The ending cinematic is going to be very interesting to watch, because it's going to be based on the decision the player made. I'm looking forward to seeing it already  What will the rest of the team think about Tomas's decision? They probably will be divided on it. You might have Sergei saying that by rescuing the villagers you did the right thing. But you might have one of Tomek's friends saying that you condemned Tomek to death by not saving him. If you do it right, and I have no doubt that you will, it could be the best cinematic in the campaign. So I wish you luck when you come to it 

If Tomek was made to look a bit useless, then the decision is easy to make. When it comes to choosing a guy to sacrifice, you want to make an impact on the player. The player needs to know who this guy is, so that it becomes a 'oh god not blabla' moment. So in order to do that, you want to make the guy being sacrificed important. But, do you pick the most skilled guy?

My answer is not necessarily. If you give Tomek a lot of exposure...meaning you give him a lot of dialogue in the story, then he becomes memorable, and so his death has more impact on the player. Probably the best comparison I can make, is in the OFP Resistance campaign, when Stoyan Yakotich gets killed. Very specific reference I know, but perhaps you remember. He's only given a few lines of dialogue in the story, yet when he gets killed by his own men, it does have an impact on the player.

I always saw it as Tomek being the chosen one but I think that was mostly because he was the poor guy in the village 

On the last point about why Tomas and Kamil don't split up, well Clay hit the nail on the head. Splitting up is probably the worst thing you can do, because the odds of survival drop for both guys. You want one guy to watch your back, and vice versa. Guys running off on their own is a death sentence; which is actually what awaits Tomek should the player decide to rescue the villagers. That's the price for his decision to run off on his own. Or is it? Thats up to the player 

Unfortunately IRL has been preventing me from finishing the last mission, but hopefully I'll get chance to finish it tonight, or this weekend if I'm not busy.

[Undeceived]

Wow, Gruntage, you really are INSIDE the campaign or in other words: You know how to develop a story. Your ideas and dialog suggestions especially regarding the importance of Tomek, but also for the ending scene and the team member's reactions are awesome. I assume though that you have other camera angles and thoughts in mind on the cutscene so you might not get what you are expecting. But I guess you'll be able to live with that.

I think that this part is set now. Thousand thanks to you both! It will be a ton of work but at the moment I'm motivated. Good that Arma 4 wasn't even announced.

Regarding the Mole mission (Gruntage): You can finish it but I'm also working on it these days (the baby-sitting will stay but hopefully it will be a bit more improved) and I'll probably push an update this or next week. What you missed is (just) the mole joining you and then the task to deliver him to the coast where NATO divers wait for you.

[Clayman]

Great idea of adding some more value to Tomek and creating some drama makes the decision much more complicated. I just wanted to point out that it must be clear to the player that he can't rescue the civilians in Grishino. If we have the options to rescue Tomek AND the civilians vs only the civilians in the other village, it's quite obvious which way to go. We need this Tomek OR the civis situation.
And yes, I too am very much looking forward to see the finished mission and especially the ending cutscene. 


As a note to myself: Re-play the Resistance campaign. I have no clue who Stoyan Yakotich is... 

[Gruntage]

I assume though that you have other camera angles and thoughts in mind on the cutscene so you might not get what you are expecting. But I guess you'll be able to live with that

I don't actually have any preconceived ideas for the cutscene  This probably goes without saying but the setting should definitely be a thunderstorm, to really capture the dark mood. No matter what choice the player makes, people suffer as a result. But really that's the only idea I had. I'll definitely try and not imagine what it would be like and instead wait and see 

I just wanted to point out that it must be clear to the player that he can't rescue the civilians in Grishino. If we have the options to rescue Tomek AND the civilians vs only the civilians in the other village, it's quite obvious which way to go. We need this Tomek OR the civis situation.

That is actually a good point and I forgot about the civis in Grishino. I suppose Tomek was successful in warning the civis in Grishino of what's coming, but he won't be able to escape himself. I guess he tries to buy time while the civis escape. Again, this makes him look heroic and meaningful.

As for Stoyan, he's actually a pretty minor character, but yet he's memorable because he's given dialogue and that instantly makes him memorable. So when he dies, it does come as a bit of a shock to first-time viewers. That cutscene where it takes place is actually good to refer to for this. My critique of it though is that they don't really follow it up in the next mission; it feels disjointed. But anyway, that's a different campaign entirely 

I'll wait a bit before finishing the Mole until the changed version is up.