A question of ethics

[DeadMeatXM2]

With the possible release of p3d edit in the not too distant future, the possibilities for Ofp editing will be thrown right open.

Now this raises the question:

"Should we edit the base game units?"

This entails improveing the soldier models, by say - removing the bedrolls, and adjusting the helmets so they actually look like k-pots. Improveing the pilots models, so they have propper helmets/visors, and equipment (life jackets and survival gear). Improveing some features on weapons/vehicles.

This also poses the question:

"Is editing the base units allowed?"

People have created numerous sound packs/upgradess that have changed the sound.pbo, would we be allowed to do the same with the base units?

Now this thread aims to get your views, and ideas for how the units could be improved. And whether or not we should actually edit the units or just create addon ones.

Please feel free to add any opinion ON THIS TOPIC to this thread, i look foreward to peoples ideas.

[PunkerSXDX]

Since Bistudio knows of this going on, and does nothing, I'm sure they don't mind, and as long as they don't mind it's okay, to hell with the law, it's between us and BI Studio  

[DeadMeatXM2]

Anybody got any opinions?

My ideas for editing the units include:

Infantry:

Basic Soldier;
         Helmet enlarged and edited to look more like a k-pot, webing added, bedroll removed, bergen/assult bergen (smaller than a normal bergen) added, extra detail to the model such as kevlar vest.

Pilot;
         Helmet improved, so it actually looks like a helmet used by pilots (with shielding for the visor when its in the "up" position, additions to the model, such as gun holster, survival gear/life jacket.

Black Op;
         Improved webing, kevlar vest added etc...

The east units would have the same improvements (but to eastern specs)

Vehicles;

Jeep with MG;
        Improvements to the model so that it looks more like the gun is mounted onto the jeep rather than stuck on the end of a 4 foot piece of scaffolding.

BMP/M113;
         External cargo proxies added, possibly remove the armour turret on the m113, just have open m2, general model improvements e.g. wheels made more round.

BRDM;
        General model improvements such as a turret with mg, more detail added.

M1A1;
        General model additions, so things are modeled rather than textured, e.g. Smoke grenade dischargers.

5T Truck;
         Possibly add an m60 to the roof, so the truck has some form of defence armament.

Aircraft:

UH-60;
        General model improvements, the uh-60 is lacking in real detail, which can be improved (considering there are some 2500 poly to play with)

AH-1;
        General model improvements, actually model the pitot tube (so it's not fuzzy due to alpha channels), extra model details.

Mi-17;
        Remove the machine gun from the nose - which doesn't actually do anything.

OH-58 Kiowa Warrior;
        General improvements on the model, so that it actually looks like a OH-58D Kiowa Warrior.

Thats most of my ideas, but don't get me wrong BIS made an excellent job of OFP , but due to the powers that be   they had to rush to meet their release dates (as do most game makers), so some of the models suffered for it, its allways the way. Also BIS modellers did not use the full potential of the game engine  :'(. For example the UH-60 is only 1500 polys, where it could easily be up to 3/4000 polys  , giving it that extra detail and realism. A lot of the soldier models are not right, as most soldiers would tell you, for campaings like Malden/Everon islands they would allways go in with bergens for ammo and supplies.

Well those are some of my ideas, i'm, sure i've got more, but i'm in college, and can't remember all of the game units  

So if anybody else has any ideas: Fire away:

[CareyBear]

I think the main problem with editing the base units is one of simple compatability. You can make them all Pac-Man if you want, but are you going to be able to play MP with someone who has the original unit set? If you can (ie, the changes are cosmetic and local only) then make 'em look like whatever you want... It's your monitor. Ethics is totally irrelevant in this case except insofar as it's ethical to be legal.. *sparks a spliff* *continues* Personally, the MG on the Hind bugs me, cos each time I see it I forget it's cosmetic. *blames the spliff*

Legally, I should probably point out that all software tends to include "no reverse engineering" clauses - which technically means that dePBO'ing an official mission is illegal, and the same would go for modifying components - including sound.pbo.

The only other legal point I could see that might be relevant is that (not positive about this with OFP) most software is actually not purchased. What you purchase is a license to use it. I know this is the case with M$, at least. This license is revocable at will, and often contains automatic void clauses - such as reverse engineering.

I know you can argue that changing a model is not reverse engineering code, but can you explain the difference to a computer illiterate judge?

3rd party Addons would have nothing to do with this, as they are not created by BIS.

Of course, this assumes that changes to core are local.. if they aren't, then I suspect you *definitely* shouldn't modify them, as it opens many doors to MP hacks (such as player's character having zero dimensions and therefore being impossible to hit, or no solidity and being able to walk through walls). I've seen that sort of stuff in other games, and found it immensely annoying.

Just a word of warning...

Cheers all....

[STGN]

It is not only the helmet on a basic soldier that shoud be change, the webing on us soldiers is rong, they youse the The M1956 Load Carrying Equipment or The M1967 Modernized Load Carrying Equipment when they in 1985 used the All-purpose Lightweight Individual Carrying Equipment(ALICE). The M1956-67 was youse in the wietnam war and was replase by ALICE in 1973. And us soldiers should have the on personnel armor system, ground troops(PASGT) came in 1983. and it should worke so that the helmet could take one shot as it can in real life not just being there for fun the same goes fore the vest it should just take more than one shot. And if it is USArmy soldiers they shoud have M16A1 insted of M16A2 which they should have if they are Mariens.

Black op (day) should not have a helmet on but a bonie Hat on and no Balaclava.

And it could be cool if the abrams got M2 Machine gun to comander, M240 Machine gun and a loader that could fired it. making the tank look much more realistik. it looks like somthing that just came out of a depot and they just forgot to mount the guns on the top.

The Hummer scould have a M60 mounted so it can be yoused as an attack Vehicle. normaly you are dead if a RPG soldier shous up

The Hind's gun should be change to a 12,7 mm insted of a 30 cal. Making it more realistic of cause that would weaken it, compared to the Apatche.

I my self is making som more realistic M16 family models adding fore exampel: the shell deflektor . And I don' t minde if the game could be more realistic in the ditails than it is now. but i can see the problem whit MP.

[DeadMeatXM2]

Thats exactly what i'm looking for STGN, some creative input with ideas of how to evelove this beast.

The "question of ethics" title was to encompass the legalitys of doing this, and i have had reply form BIS people that this is ok. It also aimed at finding out whether or not people want this to happen.

The MP problem is present, but hopefully the reality pack should prove popular (if it ever comes into fruition) that most people will download it.

This will be achievable by splitting it into groups: e.g. 1.46 units, 1.75 units etc...

cheers for the input - anyone else?

[Mr_Shady]

Tanks can't have more than one gun firing at the same time, sorry. It's hard coded, so no sneaky editing will work. I spent about two weeks trying to make a theoretical workaround, but it wasn't practical and I dumped it. You can have something fire the same weapon from different hardpoints (i.e. Cobra's rockets) as that is the same weapon system.

I think that PASGT would make the grunts look much more realistic, as would ALICE webbing and flight suit pouches on the pilots. I'd also (in a perfect world) love to see stuff like goggles, bobcaps, boonies, different webbing configs assigned randomly to troops... I'd dribble if i saw that.


If u want it to be popular, spare a thought for the poor 56kers, i once was one, and hated it when cool stuff came out but was like 10mb or even 20mb, and i couldn't get it without my parents garroting me with the phone cable.
 

[DeadMeatXM2]

Don't worry about that Kooky, m8, i've only got a 56k too, so anything i do will be small, or in "bite sized chunks"

I may do two versions:

A full version, which requires only dl, and replaceing of files.

And an advanced version, which requires dl, then de-pbo of files and replacement of p3d's.


cheers

[PunkerSXDX]

I'd like to see various improvments to the Black Ops too, since in the US Army Black Ops Doesn't exist, they Have Delta, of the Black Ops Night and Day the Day is most Accurate, the Face Cover is all wrong, and he would have a Pack of some kind, it Drives me Nuts seeing a Guy Carrying three Satchels and where does he Keep them? in his Socks? I don't think so, a Black ops with Packs, Caps, Small Hockey Helmets, etc. would be a Welcome/Needed Addon. and that's my two Sence!