(Review Completed) [SP] Abandoned Armies

[Pilot]

Basically: No ammo crates and no ammo trucks in the mission.

This might not be a bad idea, although I think the convoys should still have ammo trucks.  I think you should also keep a few ammo crates at Trinite, but then only put M16s or AK74s in them with only a few rocket launchers.  I always thought Trinite to be a trading center, so any good weapons dropped off by one army would immediately be snatched up by the other.  Also, removing most, if not all, of the ammo crates from Trinite should reduce some lag.

My two cents

-Student Pilot

[THobson]

XCess:
Reorganising with units in a vehicle does just give you a shot of the vehicle.  It was that or something infinitely more complicated, they could be sat in any seat in the vehicle.

Sorry about the ladder.  It is a problem I have not been able to replicate.  I now have a workround but there is still a small problem if the action to climb the ladder comes back and people use it while my workround is kicking in  So now I want to turn off the action so it doesn't happen  

The lodge is not specifically targetted by the enemy - that would be cheating on my part.  But if a unit knows where you are (even if it gets killed shortly afterwards - and remember a unit that is hit immediately knows about the unit that did the hitting, assuming it is still alive) then the OFP engine will send some guard units there.  And it will keep on sending them, so if you get one visit you can count on getting many.  I find it best not to lead the enemy towards the lodge.  Actually the way I play I don't use the lodge as a base, in fact I don't have a base.  I grab what ammo trucks I can, scatter them about the island and I just keep on the move.

All:
I cannot imagine how difficult this mission would become without ammo crates and ammo trucks.  The crates in the northern towns help to establish Andopov's army as well organised unlike the shower in the south.  One possibility I suggested before was to lose the vehicles at La Trinite but there was not much support for that.  So let's think about that again.  No vehicles at LaT and reduce the goodies in the ammo crates there.  So the only way to get an ammo truck is to capture one.  I could go for that. The concern I would have is that would this make this mission virtually unplayable by anyone not in the know?  It would also remove a lot of the reason for going to LaT, which for me is a highlight.  Well not going there so much as seaking in when the town is empty.

[XCess]

The problem with LaT and the crates is there's no challenge whatsoever in getting the weapons. Now i think about it and remember my first play.. I was picking up every weapon I saw and throwing it in the back of a truck because I didn't know about the weapons stash LaT. It's not really much harder but a hell of a lot more enjoyable, with those unprotected crates .. well.. they're basically yours.

I think I might restart the mission and see if i can just go odff and assasinate the leaders from the start. Will be fun

[XCess]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! I was getting to the north of the island in the boat.. Just thinking about disembarking and moving from the west through the bushes to the northern most hamlet to see if I could aquir weapons and transport when a Hind open fire on me with it's cannon, The boat survived the burst by one single shot and I managed to get on the beach and disembark. Two steps aand.. BOOM. I think it was a mine as the you are dead screen didn't show me a helo.

Damn you THob. But dont worry. I WILL try again!!!!!!


***EDIT***
Tried again and the same thing happened.... Little bit of cheating the player then THob?
I was quit fdar out to sea this time when the helo engaged me, and Walkng up rock when I suddenly exploded.. Couldn't SEE any mines I just went bang. Do you by any chance knowsAbout the helo on if I go to far north before going to Vigny?

[THobson]

It is the only cheat in the game.  I don't want the player to go investigate any of the offshore islands, and I didn't want to lock the boat - after all you have only just got out of it.  But using the boat is fatal.  Guaranteed.

Not crudely done either I think.  Creating a fully crewed chooper in the air is not a trivial task.

I think I should reduce the amount of fuel drastically and have some comment about it in the briefing.

[Goettschwan]

Mikero, on behalf of the two teams at vigny, you are talking about the 2nd Civies, if you are referring to the second civil group near La Trinite i seriously doubt they came from that far.
It is maybe from the first civil group, the one you are called to by radio, and i remember from version 1.1 that my curiousity had made me a very short and final contact in that area as i tried to look before going to the lodge ?
StG

[Mikero]

@Stg

the 2nd team you encountered was coming at you from the 1st civilians. They are vectored SW Lodge to Vigny. (after I figured their waypoint out, it all made sense) They only get as far as you (Vigny) if, like me, you spend every available minute collecting every available weapon, and stashing it in the jeep.  If you spent 'time' just investigating all the dead bodies, timing wise, you'd encounter them on the road past LaPassagne, or in Passagne. If you're quicker than that, you will encounter them when you investigate the hut near the first civilians which many players, including me, often miss. Where and when you meet them makes for a fascinating, dynamic game difference. Part of the magic.

@Xcess
I wont quote you, I would have said precisely what you have said about ammo crates.

@Thob

I am not a particularly hotshot player. Afaik, the only weapons I have ever used from crates is Larche. And now that I know M21 is available at T3 i go there. But, for me, and I trust many, many others, one huge enjoyment in this mission is planning, what-to-do-next. There is immense satisfaction in grabbing a good weapon out of a dead squad, it is a reward mechanism for bothering to attack them at all. Part of that all important player feedback that she's doing the right thing.

For starters, it's un-thematic that all these nasties are fully loaded. Most, the majority, would not have 6 pk mags. 2 would have been used up. I would be most surprised if anyone agreed with you that playing this mission without crates would be any tougher than it already is. There's an abundance of everything on any firefight. make the player work, it's enjoyable and immersive. Exception: the haystack is wondefully done. Basically Thob we have an abundance of formerly mobile ammo crates littered across the entire island, beginning at Vigny. I also had the enjoyable immersive experience of having to 'remember' where the hell an AA was located. 17 firefights ago. And had to withdraw and collect it, with all the ongoing ambushes that that entailed.

Keep the convoy ammo. It's a huge easter egg for a player.

If ammo crates cause lag, get rid of them. In fact, they are almost entirely useless since you cannot stick around to keep them.

[Fragorl]

Muh... I blinked and another 6 pages have appeared in this thread...

Expect an update from me soon. And how's this for an idea- take all of the content/anecdotes/stories from this thread, and roll them into a small novel  entitled 'Abandoned Armies: Memoirs from a post-apocalyptic Malden'. Then sell!

Btw, got anything special planned for the 1000th post(er)? ;D

[THobson]

Okay:  I am listening.  I started off by thinking the mission was already too difficult and so I felt generous to the player.  Reducing the ‘stuff' that is freely available at LaT will significantly increase the player's desire to capture one of the convoy ammo trucks.  I think that is a very good thing.  A hell of a lot of design and development work and huge amount of testing went into those convoys but most players will not notice, they will just drop a few mines or hit them with a few LAWs and the whole thing is up in smoke.  I think this is looking good.  Thanks.


Nasties being fully loaded.  The only thing I have done here is that some (I forget the fraction) of the LAW/RPG units only have two rockets and a hand grenade instead of three rockets.  You are right this would be thematic, but it is something to be done with care, it is on the list.

Btw, got anything special planned for the 1000th post(er)?

Just their own personal satisfaction.


Some might consider what follows as a spoiler, but in the interests of testing the mission there is something I need to know.  Please don't read if you don't want some pointers:

Mikero mentioned the hut near the first civis.  I assume all have found the piles of bodies in many of Stamenov's towns.  Several of you have referred to the bus at the road block and I know at least one of you has found the civis east of LaT.  I am interested in what other things might have been found that are of that nature.  They all cause lag and if they do nothing then they might have to go.  In particular there are three that have not been mentioned.  These are places you get voice-overs not cutscenes so if you think you have found one and you either get no voice over, or you get a cutscene then that is not what I am referring to.  I refer to the three as: The Truck; The Prison; and The Barn (remember the barn in the intro?).  They are, I think, in logical places, though none can be got to easily or quickly.

[Mikero]

#Thob

the prison you refer to is terrific, it has already been mentioned by someone else as being unfair, it is, you can't save them, and I think it's in line with the impossibility of saving the two women, I assume / think you just want to reinforce revulsion of Southrons with these two devices. However, as far as voicover goes, you have to be prepared to die or lose some of your squad to get it. It comes at a very desperate point in the game and few are going to make a 180 degree detour. I only got it because, typically, I was desperate to hide from your loons.

But, it is, an inter-active cutscene, one that occurs as part of play, not separate to it, and frankly is marvellous. It is wasted where it is. The escape is not, but the voicover could probably go. Sadly.

Always wanting more, not less, I would have put a hole in the wall on fuel station side, it's a natural trajectory for a player coming from that direction.

[THobson]

The voiceover is for the escape or the prison?  For the escape I did not want a voice over that happens everytime.  The player needs to spot the escaping civis.  Through some experimentation I settled on a knowsabout level of 0.000001!!  So if Alexi knows about any of the escaping units to this level you will get a voice over.  The voiceover at the prison is just a standard go there and hear it.  You will not fully understand the all the connections until I get that bloody ladder fixed.

I set the knowsaboutlevel based on the value I got from watching it through a sniper scope at a distance.  I still seem to get the voiceover too easily sometimes, even given the low knowsabout value I use.

and frankly is marvellous. It is wasted where it is. The escape is not, but the voicover could probably go. Sadly.

Sorry but I am confused by what you mean here.

You want a hole in the wall?  Easy to do.  Much easier in fact than the nicely lined up, destroyed gate at the entrance!

[Henderson]

Okay:  I am listening.  I started off by thinking the mission was already too difficult and so I felt generous to the player.  Reducing the ‘stuff' that is freely available at LaT will significantly increase the player's desire to capture one of the convoy ammo trucks.  I think that is a very good thing.  A hell of a lot of design and development work and huge amount of testing went into those convoys but most players will not notice, they will just drop a few mines or hit them with a few LAWs and the whole thing is up in smoke.  I think this is looking good.  Thanks.

NO! Having the ammo truck in La Trinitie gave me the choice to do what I want.  The player shouldn't be forced to go through a whole big thing of ambushing a convoy and trying to keep the ammo truck intact just to get the weapons he needs.

[XCess]

There are other ways of getting the ammo and weapons... small ambushes on patrols, town raids etc. It's not JUST the convoy that holds weapons, so do he soldiers.

[Henderson]

There are other ways of getting the ammo and weapons... small ambushes on patrols, town raids etc. It's not JUST the convoy that holds weapons, so do he soldiers.

Then the player can do that. But, if the player wants weapons quickly, let him sieze the ammo truck in La Trinitie. It's not like it's sitting right at your lodge. You have to sneak in between convoys to get it and take it our safely.

[XCess]

Everytime I've stolen the ammo truck from LaT there has been no opposition. I just run in, jump in the truck and drive off. Even when I could hear shots going off all around me there was no problem.

Believe me. If you played the mission having to scavenge every resource you will enjoy it atleast ten times more.  Weapons at LaT well.. they sort of standardise the mission too much. You feel more like a special forces squad than a resistance group.

***EDIT***

Tommorrow I'm gonna have a quick run through without damaged buildings and with less or no fog.. also cut the rain down a bit so I can use Llauma sky.