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Author Topic: (Review Completed) [SP] Abandoned Armies  (Read 261781 times)

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Offline THobson

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #60 on: 03 Feb 2005, 23:26:29 »
On the radio idea - Lol  I will see what I can do, but I am really pushing some limits here - because of the large savegame bug I am having to be very mean with variable names and it is getting close to a 5Mbt game already.  

This is typical mac - why don't you... and there follows a very reasonable idea that is going to take me ages to get  right.  (I have just spent all day changing the words of the Intro to match the new storyline, while ensuring the background was dark all the time).  And then there is his stunning idea about the mines.  Mind you by following his advice on my last mission I learnt a huge amount.

This is proving to be quite an experience for me.  Vigny cutscene: I think it is really neat that as the soldier walks down the road the Vigny road sign comes into shot - what do I get?  You should have two guys!!
I spent ages getting the sounds, actions and cases for the AP and AV mines - and they go down like a lead ballon.  Still that is what beta testing is for.

EDIT:
On the tranie radio/weather forecasts.  There is no electricity on the island - I even turned off every streetlight on the map in case anyone played it long enough for it to become night - so who is transmitting.  Mmmm I suppose it could be an intercept of the northern base (I picture Andropov as brutal, but  professional so that would fit - Stamenov is just evil).



Quote
Found a shedload of Ammo, trucks and heavy weapons, and no soldiers. Have I missed something?
La Trinite is visited alternately by the north and the south.  There are periods in between when it is empty, so no you have not missed anything.  If it remains loon-free for more than about 15 minutes then please let me know.
« Last Edit: 03 Feb 2005, 23:33:39 by THobson »

Offline rado1265

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #61 on: 03 Feb 2005, 23:43:46 »
I hope you do get chance to have another go at it.
Sorry, I can't :'(. I'm busy making the campaign, it was just couriosity when I dl your mission (I feel this is not for me anyway).

You have enough of aces to help you already, don't you think? ;)

Offline THobson

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #62 on: 03 Feb 2005, 23:49:47 »
That is fine.  I know there are other things to do and I appreciate the comments.  One of them was something that had been bothering me.  If fuel is scarce why are the choppers flying continuously?  I want the choppers but I don't want it to seem odd.

Offline rado1265

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #63 on: 04 Feb 2005, 00:09:50 »
They have continiously fly around and over me. Didn't see them though (because of thick fog and bad weather I reckon), but hear them all the time.

It's not just the choppers that it seems odd for me, also they're equipped well too good for some loosed groups; remember, not a long ago they've fight a war, so they must be pretty exhausted in all possible ways.

Offline macguba

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #64 on: 04 Feb 2005, 01:57:04 »
Mate, you have had so much information in the last day or two that the most you can possibly hope to achieve is to absorb it.  Digestion, and decisions about what to do about it, can come later.   Responding to each tiny point is an awful lot of effort and I think most beta testers would not expect it, providing their overall effort/contribution is acknowledged.   (Which I know it will be.)    The more people beta test for you, the more you appreciate it.

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There are two Bradlies in the Northern base?!  I take it they're all friendly to each other?
Yes.    One was near the fuel dump, alone, and I would not absoluely swear that it was a Bradley.    (I was over 1km away.)   The other definitely was, and was with a T72/T80 (I think) near the main (default) buildings in the east and appeared to come after us as a guard group (with infantry) when my no.2 fucking told them where we were.

There were loons in combat mode at the base.  Lying down, covering each other, that sort of thing.    As I say I was over 1km away, had not fired at them nor been anywhere near the area before.   However this was after I had started the war at La Trinite.

I am very protective of the medic, although the only dangerous combats I have been in have been cock ups due to beta testing, in which case I have no compunction about going back the last save.   I couldn't give a shit about 4 or 5, being civvies they are just cannon fodder as far as I'm concerned.     I wish 2, who is a fucking nightmare, was dead already.   In other words green=expendable, red=valuable.

I've only vaguely digested what Seal84's problem was.   I am a vaguely concerened that I have seen groups just kinda standing around without doing anything, but I've never watched them long enoug hwithout killing them to suggest that they shouldn't have been doing that.   As I said before, I'm very happy to set off to try and replicate difficult circumstances if that might help.

I examined Saint Louis carefully though M21 scope and saw nothing ... no vehicles, patrols or tents or anthing like that.   I saw it from only one angle, from a long way off, and didn't watch long enough to detect a moving patrol which happened to be hidden when I was looking, but the overall impression was not somewhere that something was happening.   If it is supposed to be I will look.   I am aware that in my approach to the game I have not sought "background" comings and goings, but that is quite deliberate on my part:  I read that others were, so I decided to go straight for the jugular as it were.

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I'm not thrilled by this massive improvement in the weather.  
Is this a comment about the design of the mission or about the implications of this on your state of health?
Both.   ;D   It does my state of health no favours, but also (and more importantly) I think it does the mission no favours.   I appreciate that you are trying to create continously unfavourable weather (foggy when you want it clear, clear when you want it foggy) and of course there is nothing wrong with that.     However, I think this change fails on two levels:  firstly it is not realistic (the coincidence of the front passing and daylight arriving does indeed happen in RL, but more often the two do not coincide);  and secondly you are throwing away the interest and advantages that an intermediate period - light with bad weather - can provide.    In the good weather I have done all I needed to do, namely start the war and make it to the airbase, where I anticipate no problems in trashing most if not all of the defence, all I'm saying is that it would be more difficult to decide what to do, and therefore more fun, if the weather gave you choices.    The good weather only took away choices from my situation, it did not add anything.   But it's just another detail, not a huge deal either way.

On the "typical mac ideas" if you think its shit, or just not worth the trouble, say so:  I won't be offended.    If I think of something I post it, for the mission designer to accept, change or ignore as he sees fit.  It's not like I really care.   ;D   Having said that I really do think most of my ideas are fundamentally good, if you can be bothered to implement them and the mission has the capacity.   A few are totally bollocks of course.   Don't worry about the "5 meg boundary".   It is true that there happen to be a lot of missions in the 4-5 meg range, but this is purely an accident which results from the size that sound files happen to be.    If it pushes up towards 7 or 8 don't worry about it, the number of folk who would d/l 4 but not 6 is very small.    Once you are over 10meg that changes, but that isn't going to happen so don't worry about it.    As long as you don't add some huge music files size is not going to be an issue, given that you are already in the 4meg+ bracket.

At the risk of immodesty, a fault from which I affect to suffer for modesty's sake, take everything I say on beta testing extremely seriously.    There is the odd occasion (actually not rare) when I am flat wrong, but I am one of the best and most experienced beta testers out there - I like to think it is a speciality of mine - and most of what I say really is true.    The best place to ignore me is on stuff that will take lots of effort to implement - it is often not worth the trouble.    Actually most of what most beta testers say is true.

I have no experience of the variable name bug except what I have read, so I know its real and a problem.    However I have no doubt that in this mission it can be overcome - I know from experience how much you can cut things down once you have the overall picture. (i.e. the "finished" mission.)

The more I think of the mines idea the more I like it.  To make a simple version would not be that hard.  (And well within your capabilities.)    This game is four years old, why on earth has nobody thought of this before?

It is the essence of a beta mission that all the good ideas are ignored, all the indifferent ideas are criticised for not being better and all the crap ideas are panned.   This is human nature.     This missions has acres and acres of good ideas:  as you know (from experience) I do not devote this amount of time and effort to stuff that isn't good in the first place.    I don't want to say anything about the mission as a whole because I haven't finished it yet, and frankly most of the time I've played has been pretty dull.   However, it has huge potential, and I strongly suspect that much of that potential has already been realised ... which I would discover if I played the mission in a potential-realising manner, which. due to laziness, I am not.

I am still very surprised at how soon I got the "they are fighting each other" message and the firefight.    There must have been a Northron patrol in or very close to La Trinite even though the Southron convoy was there.   It may have been about to leave to be fair.     My limited experience of La Trinite is that you don't have even as much as 15 minutes between bad guys turning up:   I entered as soon as one lot had left and after several retries really only had time for a cursory rearm of my squad, to give them all longs rather than just pistols, and for me to drive three vehicles as far as the burnt out tank to the east before the other lot arrived.

The solider walking down the road before shooting the girl at Vigny is good.    You, the creator, have had and executed well a good idea.   However, the job of critic is so much easier than inventor that many people have been able to spot easy ways in which the scene (which they themselves could not have invented) can be improved.      Be flattered by the advice, accept it and move on.   If you feel low, remember that you yourself are one of the best beta testers around, as the Unimpossible mission demonstrates, or rather will demonstrate when I make it finished.

I take your point on who is transmitting the radio stations.   However this links into the whole text story:  it's not tooo hard to make something up that is plausible.    Maybe just broadcast on the hour.

Choppers flying continuously in a fuel shortage is a problem.   Maybe make it that fuel is only short-ish, but is rigourously controlled by the baddies.

Tip:  Given that you have some working sound files, don't re-record any more till the end.   Script and story will change more than you might think, and it just hassles your friends and family to keep re-doing them.   Leave the voices till you have the script absolutely perfect.    For interim versions, if you like, just record your own voice so that there is at least a sound file there, and tell us what is going on.

Total autosaves will not work in this mission - its much too open and you cannot tell what the player will do.   There are several approaches that you could employ, all equally valid.  At this stage I think you should just give consideration to the various possibilities and how many the total might be.   The details can be slotted in in a late version.

The mines are good.    The better something is, the more people can and want to improve the idea.    In this mission you have particularly set yourself up for criticism, by proclaming that you are trying to do something realistic.    You're not the first, I've played many (usually shite) missions that claimed they had the "whole island" experience".     But one thing I can tell you from not just OFP but life in general:  criticism is directly proportional to quality.   Nobody wastes time cricitising rubbish.      The huge and repeated response to this mission (I see many people making repeated posts) states very clearly that it is something that those people regard as valuable, and worthy of their effort and comment.    Any beta post, no matter how critical, is a compliment to the original mission.

If Andropov is brutal but professional, and Stamenov is just evil, then you need to bring that out more.    I know I've been told that, in amongst a whole bunch of other stuff, but I haven't really absorbed that.     If you really want to get it across you need to embed it in the mission:  for example Andropov  towns have a few whole buildings and lots of graves:   Stamenov are ostentasiouly different:  trashed buildings, evidence of rape and robbery, and bodies rather than graves.     If you want to bring this out, do not attempt to be subtle:  this is a subtlety, therefore it must be handled obviously.    (Things that are obvious should of course be handled subtely.)
« Last Edit: 04 Feb 2005, 03:03:48 by macguba »
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Offline SEAL84

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #65 on: 04 Feb 2005, 02:49:34 »
I've only vaguely digested what Seal84's problem was.   I am a vaguely concerened that I have seen groups just kinda standing around without doing anything, but I've never watched them long enoug without killing them to suggest that they shouldn't have been doing that.   As I said before, I'm very happy to set off to try and replicate difficult circumstances if that might help.

Heh, don't worry, I've sent him further info via PM.  I'll handle the recon work behind enemy lines, you keep blowing things up and we'll compare notes at the end ;D

At this point I'm just observing enemy movement and generally being a sneaky bastard, so I'll keep a doubly sharp eye out for any additional AI oddities.

Offline macguba

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #66 on: 04 Feb 2005, 03:06:55 »
Cool.   :thumbsup:   I've been deliberately going for the heart.   I'm sorta trying to wrap it up with as few kills as possible.     Although how that leaves the "extraction" we'll have to see.   ;D


Edit:  fuck, 2am ... If I don't get to bed soon I'm going to turn back into a pumpkin.
« Last Edit: 04 Feb 2005, 03:10:41 by macguba »
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Offline SEAL84

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #67 on: 04 Feb 2005, 05:37:15 »
If Andropov is brutal but professional, and Stamenov is just evil, then you need to bring that out more.    I know I've been told that, in amongst a whole bunch of other stuff, but I haven't really absorbed that.     If you really want to get it across you need to embed it in the mission:  for example Andropov  towns have a few whole buildings and lots of graves:   Stamenov are ostentasiouly different:  trashed buildings, evidence of rape and robbery, and bodies rather than graves.     If you want to bring this out, do not attempt to be subtle:  this is a subtlety, therefore it must be handled obviously.    (Things that are obvious should of course be handled subtely.)

Agreed, great suggestion there.  It would be nice if you could work this difference into the mission more somehow, going beyond mere scenery.

Offline THobson

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #68 on: 04 Feb 2005, 09:01:43 »
I didn't mean to seem down, and I wasn't really, it was the red wine talking. :)  I do appreciate the comments thank you.

I certainly do recognise the quality of your ideas and I do not want you to think otherwise.  They usually involve me having to learn a lot more than I already know.  Which is no bad thing, but it puts mission completion so much further away - again still no bad thing.  Even throw away comments like "the entrance to the base was un-guarded"  are not lost on me.

For some reason I had in mind a 5Mbt limit on what OFPEC will allow, though I cannot remember where I got that from.  If I am wrong then that does give me some scope for additional dialogue files.  I don't think I will be looking for more music.

The Andropov brutal professional, Stamenov evil monster is an idea that has just developed.  You will not see much in this version that reflects that.

I am pleased that lag is not as much of an issues as I feared it would be.  I was very mean about adding new groups (I am a long way from the 63 or whatever limit per side) and have been moving their waypoints about randomly to help spread them about a bit.   I can now do more tailoring at specific locations than I thought possible.

I was planning to take out my AV and AP mines (it will give me back 30 variable names and 30 triggers)  but I like you idea of finding some instructions - I am sure I can work that into the script.

Keep the comments coming.  I now need to get back to doing enough to pay the mortgage!

djackl

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #69 on: 04 Feb 2005, 09:11:44 »
My limited experience of La Trinite is that you don't have even as much as 15 minutes between bad guys turning up:   I entered as soon as one lot had left and after several retries really only had time for a cursory rearm of my squad, to give them all longs rather than just pistols, and for me to drive three vehicles as far as the burnt out tank to the east before the other lot arrived.

I'm only at school so I don't have too much time but I'll just say, I've been in La Trinite for about 10 minutes I think (or at least long enough to put 7 Bizons into the
ambulance and half rearm my squad with pistols, HKs and RPGs) and I haven't met anything yet, maybe I'll stick around, see whether I can lay an ambush....  :o

By the way, I have experienced no lag at all, don't know what you all mean by 'benchmarks' but I know there hasn't been any lag yet (then again my 3.06Ghz might be able to answer for that  8))
« Last Edit: 04 Feb 2005, 09:12:26 by djackl »

Offline macguba

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #70 on: 04 Feb 2005, 11:06:10 »
@ djackl

Stick around in La Trinite for a bit and you should get some company.    

"benchmark" is a tool included in the game to help mission designers.   It is a measure of the speed of your computer.   Big benchmark implies a good, fast comp.     Click on Start-Programmes-Codemasters-OperationFlashpoint-Flashpoint preferences to discover your benchmark.       My old PII benchmark was about 750, which was just and only just adequate to play Resistance.    Your comp is probably over 5,000.


@THobson

You are right, there is a limit on mission size but only for http upload.   OFPEC will accept missions of any size by ftp upload, as long as they're not totally stupid.    5 and a bit meg is  fine.
Plenty of reviewed ArmA missions for you to play

Offline macguba

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #71 on: 04 Feb 2005, 13:48:56 »
OK here's the AP mine script.    It's not thoroughly tested but it seems to work.    I wrote it then looked briefly at your script and incorporated one or two bits.

This script is called from the Action menu.   It checks that you have a grenade and if you do it:

- removes the grenade from your inventory
- makes you do an animation
- places an object on the ground
- gives you a few seconds to get away
- then moves a trigger to the spot

With this particular trigger the mine is a toe popper - it damages the victim's legs but doesn't kill him.      The trigger is fired (=mine detonated) only by somebody on foot.

I've kept it simple so at present there is only one trigger and the Action is removed after you have placed one mine.   It would be easy to make extend it to have as many mines as you like.  

To improve this script you could amend it to:

- add a sound
- detonate the grenade at ground level to make it lethal
- offer the player a choice of "toe popper" or "regular"  
- make it susceptible to vehicles as well/instead of just soldiers
- allow different types of munition


Given you have variable name constraints, I would suggest that you bin the AV mines and use a version of this as an anti personnel/light vehicle mine.  (If you can split out the armour, not sure.)     Find a box of a dozen fuses at the ammo dump, along with instructions.    


« Last Edit: 04 Feb 2005, 13:56:58 by macguba »
Plenty of reviewed ArmA missions for you to play

Offline THobson

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #72 on: 04 Feb 2005, 16:44:48 »
Thanks for the mine I will look at it when I get home tonight.

The AV mines are neat in that they disable a Bradley enough to get the crew out but not enought to kill it.  I have been quite generous with repair vehicles so it makes ot possible to capture the Bradley - but heh who wants to be in one of those when there are AT soldiers about?

I now recall the reason why you might be getting north-south action very soon after engaging the convoy at La Trinite (3 lol).

Andropov and Stamenov do not trust each other and have each infiltrated infantry into the woods near La Trinite.  They do not interfere with the convoys and it would require a deliberate search (or getting hopelessly lost) for the player to find them - but heh - what if he does?  They are there in case the other side starts to play silly games on their trading arrangement and begin failing to meet their commitments.  I noticed in testing that sometimes, but not always, they will wander over to the La Trinite to see what is going on if there is any action there - even if it only involves the other side driving over a mine.  I contemplated doing something to stop this but decided that it was actually quite realistic behaviour so left it.

So I suspect that when you hit the south convoy the ‘enforcers' from the north took an interest wandered over to the town to take a look and it was these guys that made contact with some of the south survivors.

Edit:
I couldn't wait so I have had a look at the mine.  Looks neat.  I could not get the deletevehicle to work like that on my mines, maybe it is beacuse I am using a different case, but the reference ("AAA840" in your script) I used when creating the case would not work on the deleteVehicle nearestObject bit when it is detonated.

« Last Edit: 04 Feb 2005, 17:15:28 by THobson »

Offline macguba

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #73 on: 04 Feb 2005, 17:20:31 »
Ah, if the AV are neat then keep them.

That explanation of what happened at 3 fits exactly with what happened, particularly if the small enforcer team is in the woods to the northwest of the town.  I think its perfectly realistic: it confuses you slightly, but that's fine.

Hope the script proves useful.  I haven't checked that the bottle (AAA840) actually gets deleted when the trigger fires.  It certainly disappears.
« Last Edit: 04 Feb 2005, 17:22:08 by macguba »
Plenty of reviewed ArmA missions for you to play

djackl

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Re:Abandoned Armies
« Reply #74 on: 04 Feb 2005, 17:36:54 »
Quote
"benchmark" is a tool included in the game to help mission designers.  It is a measure of the speed of your computer.  Big benchmark implies a good, fast comp.    Click on Start-Programmes-Codemasters-OperationFlashpoint-Flashpoint preferences to discover your benchmark.      My old PII benchmark was about 750, which was just and only just adequate to play Resistance.    Your comp is probably over 5,000.

ok just found my benchmark is 6849   :)
« Last Edit: 04 Feb 2005, 17:37:13 by djackl »