(Review Completed) [SP] Abandoned Armies

[THobson]

so I'm going to nibble at his strength until he is sufficiently weak that the northrons attack him...I can't remember if you can start the war that way,

There is certainly to code there to do make it happen but it will not be easy.  I did not think - what would be a fair amout of damage the player could do to get this reward. I though what might be the numerical superiority that one side might want before contemplating an attack.  All random of course.  

If you do manage to weaken Stamenov sufficiently to cause Andropov to attack I would be very interested in your views on how it plays.

The point is that the baddies are not equal to me - the southrons are worse because they have had more effect on me.

I am currently working making this even stronger.

All other comments are adding to the 'to do' list
 

They spend about ten minutes in the area,

That is unusual.

I remember reading something about being able to rearrange the squad but maybe that's wishful thinking or the next version.

It is on the list of things to think about.  I liked the idea for the reason you outlined.  I didn't like the idea because I want the player to get to know these people and I do it by where they are in the list by when they joined me.  

The comment I made in a post earlier applies here - if you let ideas soak then several of them will join up.  I would like to get the player more involved with the team members as individuals, and make more of their names.  (Currently the first time the player is told Erik's and Karl's surnames is in the final scene).

So I could combine this.  Cutscene/roll call in which Alexi re-arranges them into something like:
player, soldier, soldier, medic, soldier, soldier, civi, civi, civi with each of them being addressed by name.

I think I know where this is leading - I will need to learn dialogs so the player can decide how he wants them

[macguba]

OK, well I'll go with that plan then and see if I can make it work.     Can you give me a clue as to what roughly what amount of destruction might be required?

Dialogue where the player gets to organise the squad is very good, not least because it will help you to get to know them.   (There is a good dialogue tute and a handy dialogue maker in the Ed Depot.)    Better than just a cutscene because the interactivity will make you care more.

On with the story.

Took 5 vehicles:  me on point with m/c, ambulance, repair, ammo and the haunted civvy truck.    I reccied ahead and we crossed the road at Arudy, which I wanted to check really was clear.    While the slowcoaches made their way across country I went ahead and approached Dourdan from the SW.   Bang you're dead ... I had forgotten about the covering snipers.  Oh, its not a sniper, its a lone loon.  Interesting.   Not far behind him come a squad of 5, very aware - its as if they are pursuing him.  He's certainly vanished to the SW.  The squad settle down to  S&D waypoint to my left.    I'm in dreadful spot, right in the open like a fly on a bald man's bonce.    Sneak to a bush while they're over the skyline and it's actually just the right spot for a bit of fun in the direction of the village.    A nice mixture of safe and aware loons there and I drop five or six.    Turn back to the squad:  I really am crap these days, and much too reliant on cheat savegames.  All these years of beta testing are taking their total.   Eventually I drop them and bang!  the lone loon comes back over the skyline and shoots me in the back.   Oops no, it's actually a small squad, presumably on guard since they're standing still.  I reposition and shoot two of three:  a few moments later I find two in some trees so I suppose there were four.   They never saw me so I doubt there will be comeback.    All this time btw the choppers have been coming and going.

It's 11.10 and the weather is fine.    The jeep convoy comes through in good order.    I'm going down to the village - I want to make sure its clear and more importantly get that lorry, we still don't have a wagon that will carry everyone.

The village is clear, apart from one idiot loon standing in safe beside the lorry.    He gets a bullet in the back of the head, which he deserves.   I jump in and the ground boils with fire from an armoured group which is sitting on the hillside where I dropped that squad of four - you remember, the one that didn't see me so weren't calling up the cavalry.    Well I deserved that.    Next time I gave the idiot loon the good news and started placing mines using laws from bodies.     I was halfway to the third when boom the first went off:  the trade convoy coming back from 3.   Oh shit shit shit I'm in the shit now.   Hurridly find a bush.  The armour from the hill comes to sit on top of me:   a vulcan and two T72s I think.

The rest of the convoy try to leave and of course the lead truck gets blown on the other mine I placed.  ;D   Eventually it staggers off and I get an angle on the vulcan with a rocket.  Sadly the rocket explodes prematurely - ofp graphics again, the ruined fence and building obviously weren't quite ruined enough.   I am toast.

Dilemma now:  the savegame is before I placed the mines and I'm concerned that blowing the convoy here might be a war trigger, though it should be far enough away from 3 not to be.  I think I'll wait till its gone through to be on the safe side.

Waited, planted four AV mines (one on each approach road and one on the crossroads) each flanked by AP mines.   Ran up the hill to hunt the armour and heard a mine going off followed by secondary explosions.    Gave a satchel to one tank and a rocket to the vulcan, and after a bit the second tank minced off.   Went back to look at the village - that mine had taken out the whole of the jeep convoy.   Possibly one AP mine went off too, but the other appears still to be there.

Which reminds me, the AP and AT mines should have different objects.   I know there is a shortage of suitable objects to use, but have another look - it would really help.    Also, following on from a remark earlier, I know you can't use format commands in coloured text - you can't change the number of mines.   Use another radio call instead, once the text is fancy.    The other thing I've being meaning to mention is ammo crates in towns.  There aren't any, and it feels odd.    The ideal would be one composite crate, nearly empty but with the standards like hand grenades, grenades, perahps a rocket or two, maybe even the odd mine or satchel and of course Ak74 and M16 mags.   Possibly a couple of more specialised things too, if you wanted to be kind.

I was about to get back on my motorbike - which, conveniently, was not 20 yards from the burning vulcan - when I remembered why I came in the first place.   Muttering, I ran all the way down to the village (again), picked up some rockets and went tank hunting.    The tank and recovered from his cowardice and had returned to his original position, so I plugged one rocket into him and he legged it again.  

The next bit is a little confused because it all happened so fast.   There was a "whump" and I hit the dirt in automatic reaction .....   Looked around, not dead, of course it was another of my mines!   The tank was in dead ground now so I reloaded the launcher and he appeared right in front of me.    Got two rockets off in close succession as he came past me - I managed to reload faster than he could swing the turret as he sped downhill almost out of control but on the third hit he didn't blow up ... bloody T80s .... muttering, I ran over to the body of one of the gang of 5 in this area (remember them) picked up his two rockets - I like that some of these guys are one short - when "whump" another mine.   Along the way I had established that the trade convoy was blowing itself to bits but I only just picked up the fresh rockets when a vulcan appeared, crossing at speed only 100m away.   A brilliant deflection shot took care of him and them "whump" as (I think) the wretched T80 hit the remaining mine.    

I only wanted to borrow a lorry.  

Anyway ... ran down to the village for the third?  fourth?  time and borrowed an AK and some more rockets.   Took out the crews of two lorries with automatic fire, but I suspected the third lorry had a squad in the back (it did) so it got a rocket.   The tank was driveable so after all that I didn't even get a bloody lorry, driving the tank back to my laager where it was repaired just as a chopper flew right overhead.  It still has the southron flag but I like that.     From where would we get a flag to change it?


Sitrep

It is noon and the weather is fine.    My whole squad is alive (to my delight, I was convinced my fun in Dourdan was going to be ruined by something happening to them) and well equiped and we are on the edge of the trees at Ef49.  

No sign of the war starting yet - certainly nothing came through Dourdan.    I've done all the collecting of bodies, including Houdan.    We have cleared Arudy and Dourdan, destroyed the jeep convoy and the trade convoy, cleared the farm west of Houdan, destroyed at least three roving infantry squads, destroyed an armoured group of vulcan, T72 and T80.    This strikes me as enough to warrant an attack by the north:  the border is wide open with the jeep patrol gone and two villages empty.   Also an armoured group and other stuff destroyed.   However I would not say it is enough to guarantee an attack:  we should be in the random zone.

[SEAL84]

Well, I reset my video settings to normal and things seem to have straightened themselves out in the floating architecture department.  

Anyhow, I retry from just north of the armor team near Houdan - I charge into town, grab #9, and hoof it back to base with him and 7.  No sign of enemy infantry patrols this time.

I head down to 3 by my lonesome and with glee I note that the town is empty - nice to see the custom flags and weapons crates put inside shacks.  I peruse the crates but end up making off with the ammo truck.  On the way back to base I notice that I've been awarded a savegame - is this for stealing the truck or do you award one every half hour / 45 minutes or so?

I get the truck back to base and look in the back - holy shit, there's a LOT of guns in this thing   ;D

Grab an HK, hop into the jeep and drive around a bit - I take the boat out for a spin and notice that the island that I presumably came from is deserted.  Not that it matters though.  I drive around in the jeep some more and recon Goisse, finding an Abrams there...head back to base, go nick the repair truck from 3 as I wait for the weather to improve.

Finally the rain lets up and I head back to Vigny with an HK and a pair of nades...from the hillside overlooking the town I HK-snipe ten guys who are standing around in wedge formation...they have no idea where I am and even though I wait around for about 15 minutes, nobody shows up to investigate.  Having gone there on foot to be on the safe side, I have to go back to base and fetch my jeep.  When I return, I casually load up the jeep with their weapons, return to base, and rearm my team.

Time to head to class for the afternoon, but I when I get back I think I'll take Irena (who I've given an MP5) and go assasinate some random people in preparation for starting the big war.

Oh, almost forgot...given the rediculous amount of mines you have in the ammo crates in 3, why bother with AV mines at all?  Granted the BIS mines won't take out jeeps, but that hardly matters as you can just as easily shoot them up with small arms anyhow.  Methinks only the AP mines would be useful...

On that note, how about instead of saying "fuses for AP mines," why not say you found some trip wires in 3?  A hand grenade stuck in a tin can with the pin removed and a trip wire attached makes a hell of a booby trap.

[THobson]

Can you give me a clue as to what roughly what amount of destruction might be required?

It can be a bit complicated and it is random but  assuming you only damage one side and not both then:
above a 2.75 to 1 ratio war is certain
below a 1.75 to 1 ratio war is not possible.

Between those ratios war is possible depending on a random number.  As this is checked repeatedly at intervals once the 1.75 ratio is achived the likelihood of war increases with time.

To achieve a 1.75 ratio you need to kill somewhere in the region of 120 loons from one side
a ratio of 2.75 will require you to kill around 180.

My intention was not that someone would deliberately start a war this way, but that if someone were to decide on dealing with one side and leave the other alone at some point they may get some unwelcome help.

You are correct that killing a convoy will result in war - the side that has lost its convoy will occupy 3 in retaliation.  War is then inevitable.

Dialogue it is then.  Soon there will be nothing left to learn  
Oh excpet for drop - that is still Black Magic.

SEAL
Glad the video setting seem to have solved the problem.  Is the number of mines ridiculous?  I want to make 3 a very desirable, but dangerous place.  Also as this is where they are trading there would be a heavy concentration of goodies.

AV mines - I actually find these more useful than the AP mines.  They take out anything from an APC down, and you don't need to be there to do it.  Good to see an alternative view.

Extra savegames come every 90 minutes or so.  This will change as a result of comments by mikero and mac.

Silenced weapons are great for not giving your position away.

EDIT:

Mines - From an earlier post of mine that you may not have read:

Options I am thinking about, and on which I would welcome comment, are:

Option 1: Just get rid of them

Option 2: Put a safe option as the top action (I like Planck's suggestion of a hint giving the number left) and remove the need to have some specific items in inventory - this is what makes the AP mines useless and the AV mines so annoying when placed accidentally.  But this change does reduce the realism significantly.

Option 3: At La Trinite instead of forcing them on the player, give the player the option to take them or not and also give him a radio command that lets him throw them away.

Option 4:  Option 2 and Option 3 combined.

The problem is the accidental placing of mines when you don't want to.

[THobson]

I only wanted to borrow a lorry.  

I laughed so much I had tears in my eyes.

If you have killed a convoy then you will have started a war.  Don't worry about it.  Play on it sounds fun.  I will check what I need to know about the other route to starting the war.

[macguba]

 ;D

120 loons to start the war?   That's a lot.  I doubt I've done that many yet.   To kill that many and not trash the convoy you'd pretty much have to be avoiding it.   I know it's only a backup, but in view of the fact that it was what I thought was supposed to happen I'd make it more likely.  Worth thinking about anyway.

Mines:  keep them.   I love having a mine that actually works on all vehicles rather than only some.  The numbers I think are reasonable.    A safe Action on top, count mines, is not merely an excellent idea but essential.

Now that I've used them I like that you have to have them inventory.  However, it does have an annoying aspect and that is that you have to have the right kit.   consider expanding the AV mine to be any rocket, satchel or grenade.   AP is trickier, really has to be handgrenade doesn't it.    M16 or other mag just doesn't seem dangerous enough.

Do force them on the player, you're not in a position to make an informed choice.   However, I don't suppose there is any harm in giving a radio option to throw them away.

Reduce the number of ammo crates at 3.   You don't need that many and every little reduction helps.    I had some lag above Dourdan when the weather cleared, though dropping viewdistance to 900 brought it back within limits.

Rethinking my kills.  Very approximate and I've probably forgotten some:

Vigny - 8
La Pessagne - 4
Arudy - 6
loose squad - 6
farm - 4
Dourdan - 6
loose squad - 5
loose squad - 4
jeeps - 12
convoy - 20
armour - 9

Call it 90 assuming I've forgotten somebody.   That should be enough to make a war possible.   Ideally it would be a more sophisticated sum:  recce choppers are going much more aware of armour and convoys than infantry, and the oppostion will probably care more too.   If the enemy lost all their armour you'd attack even if all their infantry was alive.

Edit:  I'm supposed to be stopped for tonight but I couldn't resist a recce run.  Went back to the farm:  of course the armour was long gone but I forgotten that I'd left a lorry there.   We drove south down the track to the end, a spot that isn't overly familiar I'm pleased to say.   It started raining again, went very fast from fair to overcast to rain.    A propos of nothing I got the "hmm they're fighting each other taht should be interesting" sound file.  Which felt a bit odd.

Remember the Resistance campaign?   Remember the unknown character who was constantly warnng you by radio that the Russians were coming at you from the south?   Well I've long had it in the back of my mind that you should have something like that in this mission, but only now has the idea begun to crystallise.    You could perhaps have one of the civvies at the lodge on the radio to you:  he gets news from monitoring enemy radio broadcasts, radio messages from other civvy and resistance groups, perhaps an OP somewhere.    It gives you a "narrator" character, which allows you the mission designer to give information to the player while making it feel part of the mission.    "The radio has gone wild!  I can't understand anything!   I think ... I think ... I think the truce is over - they are fighting each other!"

It is always the case in beta testing that people suggest adding things:  they rarely suggest taking them away.      The things you might consider removing from my experience this session are

The 4 man guard squad above Dourdan, who contributed nothing.   (Who was that solo runner btw?  Any idea?  I'm sure he didn't have a squad.)    

The pile of bodies behind the tent at Dourdan - you don't need four every time.   Three well placed would be better.  (As a rule work with odd numbers rather than even for making things look good.)  

The loon under the net with the lorry and/or the loon in the open tent at Dourdan.   (Traps like that aren't going to catch many people these days, and they are not worth a whole extra group plus triggers just for one loon.)

Choppers.  Seemed like there were a lot, although maybe I just happened to be under flight paths.   They are real lagdemons, choppers, so trim them to the minimum.

The fourth jeep in the convoy.  Three would be just as effective and they were all killed by one mine (and secondary explosions) anyway.

One or more loons from the 5t lorry in the trade convoy.   Which reminds me, one of them came back to life after I shot him in the cab.

[THobson]

It still has the southron flag but I like that.

Interesting.  The flag is 'attached' to the group leader.  Do you happen to still have a dead commander in the tank?

From where would we get a flag to change it?

I have a flag in mind, I just have not done anything about this yet.  Jut so much to do - and at the moment I am still trying to earn a living.

Call it 90 assuming I've forgotten somebody.  That should be enough to make a war possible.

That is barely 1.5 to 1.  I do like the idea of giving much more weight to the armour.  I will work on that, also the reduction in the front line troops looks worth including as well.

If there is no war then the task is immense.  Kill the convoy and war is certain, but the player will not know that.  The 'weaken one side to start a war' is really a longshot back up.  As you say you would need to deliberately avoid the convoys to activate the code.  I will test it.  I think I have been a bit crude here anyway and perhaps a bit more subtlety is required.

Reduce the number of ammo crates at 3.

Later if I have to.  I wanted to create a feeling of super abundance and I have already gone from 16 ammo crates to 8.  Let's say I went to 4, 2 in each hut.  It would feel like arriving at a friends birthday party where the table was proudly laid with their best crockery but all they had was a couple of chipolatas and a bag of crisps - embarrassing.

Bye the way - yes the barrels have fuel in them.

[macguba]

I've just checked and yes there was a dead commander in the tank.    Regarding the player's flag, I meant where would the player have the physical flag.   Or is he wearing union jack underpants that could be converted?

90 random loons probably isn't enough to justify a war per se.   Yes, I think this trigger needs to be a bit more sophisticated.

The ammo crates at 3 are fine if you want them.   The impression of superabundance is created.  I know what you mean about the crisps.

OK I really am done now.   G'night.

[Henderson]

Hehehe, just me and OFP now.  

Where I last left off I had just gotten back from Larche. I decide my next target should be Arudy. Just as I was about to leave my base I heard a large fireight somewhere east. After a while the firing stopped and I was off to Arudy. The drive was uneventful, and arudy looked quiet, but I didn't trust it. I scouted around, looking for the snipers who had killed me so many times before. I walked around, everything was looking good.....then 7 got sniped. I killed the sniper but decided to reload from the last save. This time I run into the other sniper and get killed. Grrr. THREE retries later I finally kill the first one. Just as I'm about to finish the second one off, Southrons arrive and pop me. Next retry I pop him through the bushes. Finally, the two annoying snipers were gone.

Now it was time to deal with the guys who shot me. I crawled down the hill and popped one, but got shot by some others. It turned out it was a whole squad down there. :/ I decided to take them out though, to even the odds. I attacked again, this time prepared, only to get stuck in a foggy shoot out, which of course, the A.I won. I tried again, letting the MG jeep patrol pass through Arudy. I looked through my binocs as the fog interfered with my visuals. I saw some enemies, but decided to get close and take them down. They saw me, and killed me. After many retries I decided to flank them. I told my squad to hold fire and flanked left. I crawled through the bushes, got the enemy in my sights, and told my squad to open fire just as I did.

It was a slaughter, the whole enemy squad was down in moments. Arudy was cleared. I regrouped my squad on the west side of the town. I had seen the MG jeep patrol going west towards Vigny, so I decided to chase them down. La Passenge was my next stop. I stop and disembarked a safe distance away from town, so no one could see me. I used my binocs of the town, it looked quiet,  but looks can be decieving. Visibility was starting to get better. My squad moved in and saw some baddies on patrol in safe mode. I saw another dead body there so they must of repulsed an attack and switched back. Anyway, I took them down easily. #3 called out another target and 8 took him down. I sweeped the town but other then those three guys it was empty. I then decided to walk to Vigny. I heard some Shilka firing and helicopter sounds in the backround as I walked.

Ahhh Vigny, where it all began. I approached it carefully. Soon, contacts were called, and the fight was on. I told my men to hit the dirt and they started picking off badies. Most of the enemy seemed to be trying to run somewhere, not stay and fight. One officer got stuck in a house, I had to run up and kill him. Just as I was about to sweep the town, more baddies came from the east. I was out of bizon ammo by this time and had to grab a m16 to help take them down. I couldn't tell if they were northrons or southrons but there was a whole squad of them. I sweeped the town, killed an AA guy who was stuck in the barbed wire at the house Tatyana was in, and prepared to move out. I wished I had found the patrol jeeps.

Now I don't know to attack even though it's sunny. I don't want to tip the scales too much in one side's favor.

[Mikero]

"macguba"

A fire and some friendly faces would have been nice.

This dissapointed me too. Particularly the hiding of the civils in the lodge thing. I was expecting, indeed wanting, a feeling of home base here and didn't get it sufficiently, if at all.

Fires while a 'good idea' (tm) are moths to flames stuff, there'll be an expectiation on the players part that some interaction will happen. But, certainly, in the context of rain, drizzle, general misery of what's going on, a player feedback Thob is needed here that the player is doing the 'right' thing.

squad re-arrangement

and why the hell not! It's just another lovely piece of immersion. As a device, there's nothing wrong with romance here, a whinge (dialog lead in) from one of them, that they want to be near / protect, one of the others, brother/sister/mother/lover

I only wanted to borrow a lorry.  

Falls off chair, rotfml.

where do we get  a flag from?

from the civies hiding in the lodge, now at new campfires, the moment any purloined vehicle comes into camp.

@seal84

"fuses' confused the crap out of me. trip wire is correct.

@macguba

>ammo boxes.

don't agree.

Edit:

sorry. I dont agree that ammo boxes are required at all, anywhere.

@Thob
>Trinite is appealing.

Not for me. It is the last town I ever wanted to go near, no amount of 'goodies' would make me go near the place. av/ap has a little to do with that.

>war triggers.

Dissapointed now that I know is all it takes is a convoy. For me, your ratios sounded perfect, with perfect hysteresis. HOWEVER, i ultimately cleaned out all occupied towns other than the 2 centrals. THAT was dissapointing that nothing further happened as consequence. My view? Occupy them with opposite troops, I clean Goisse, southrons move in. It's called player feedback <grin>

[SEAL84]

Since we were discussing mines earlier, I went ahead and grabbed 8 frags and headed to the T-junction where the North-South road just west of the camp meets the winding road that comes West out of Larche - two pairs of AP mines on the Larche road and the main road, then off to a bush to wait for the machinegun jeeps.

Why?

Because they piss me off.

Anyway, I watch with horror as they approach from the South and turn towards Larche, apparantly missing the mines I laid - but suddenly the lead jeep trips one, then another, then all the jeeps get all tangled up and start backing over grenades.  Six guys escape on foot as one jeep blew up completely, but three are "merely damaged."  Time to fetch that repair truck ;D

[Mikero]

@THobson

ap/av

I think we missed the obvious, it's a modificatiion of option 3.

keep the ap/av mines exactly as they are with same wrist action,

add a radio msg to TOGGLE them on and off.

you're doing this already for hint, it's not part of game immersion. At the time the toggle would be used is when the player is licking her wounds, looking over gear selection, and planning cunning plans.

flags:

I'm uneasy about introducing them to westrons. They would blurr the distinction of armies. If they appear *only* on civilian objects, they would sharpen the distinction. Another potential use would be to bring them out in towns freed from enemy *after* player returns there if at all. In my attack on the airport, I had the distinct feeling civilians were peeping from windows because the armies had gone.

resistance:

it's not clear why they're there at all. I think you fudged it. Can't figure out why they survived) why they aren't part of one of the army's). There doesn't seem a plausible reason for resistance troops being there at all. Think you should work that a bit.

Abrahms

I learned never to stick around. Learning to avoid tanks is fatal. I need a lone resistance soldier at one of the meetings to tell me

"stay away from the tanks, I'm all that's left of my squad"

or

"If we meet tanks, sir, I will flee"

This would alleviate the 'unfairness' of them. If we're silly enough to go after them, we have been warned, and NOT in a briefing.

[THobson]

Lots of good stuff.  Thanks all.
mikero:

resistance:

it's not clear why they're there at all. I think you fudged it. Can't figure out why they survived) why they aren't part of one of the army's). There doesn't seem a plausible reason for resistance troops being there at all. Think you should work that a bit.

The background in the briefing tells the story of the resistance movement starting when the Russians invaded and then being crushed by both sides once Andropv and Stamenov reach a stalemate.  Could that do with reinforcement during the mission?

I like the idea of an av/ap mine toggle.  Like I said, these ideas just need time to soak and they just get better and better.  It saves on re-programming the code everytime I change my mind.

Abrams comment - that would certainly add to the atmosphere.  Does a 100+ player need to be told this though?

In my early design notes there is the comment:

Make sure there is no trivial way to start the war, for example by a player in the know just going to La Trinite and killing a convoy.

I have failed on this.  I spent a long time in the early stages of building this when a war would happen spontaneously, eventually putting a stop to that resulted in a war being very difficult to make happen.  I now have, I hope, some realistic consequences for things happeneing.  If a convoy is killed then that side will send an infantry group to La Trinite and occuppy it in retaliation and the next time the other side's convoy arrive they will have a warm welcome.  If the player has wiped that infantry group out before then of course a war will not result just from killing a convoy and more will be needed.  If I remember correctly Student Pilot started a war by having southons on guard chase him into a town occuppied by the northrons.


SEAL: You may not realise it but your story has helped to confirm for me that something I had a concern about is not a problem.  Thanks.

[macguba]

@SEAL84 - I've watched that jeep convoy blow itself up in a tangle a couple of times now.  It's fun.  ;D


@THobson

Could that do with reinforcement during the mission?

Yes.   The situation of the Resistance in the mission is currently not entirely satisfactory.      The player at present is kinda expecting a little more resistance help:  I know you were told they were squashed, but you have your dad's kit and the second person you meet is a semi-organised resistance leader.   He has a hideout, people and weapons.   Then you meet groups of civvies being led by the Resistance.  

What I think is actually happening is that the resistance has been crushed and scattered.   You are the leader and focal point of a new resistance movement, born from the ashes of the old one and growing as the mission progresses.    You could take that aspect of the story in other directions, but I suspect this the the most satisfying.

Mine toggle - nice idea.   Better than the throwaway approach.

Abrams comment.   Classic example of soaking and joining up.   The comment itself is, as you say, not that important to the kind of player who is going to play, enjoy or complete this mission.   However, it is ideal for developing the character of the loon in question.   When you meet him, he gives you clues about running away from tanks.   Later in the mission, if you give him a rocket launcher, he will complain.   He is the non-anti-tank man.    Give him a machine gun and he's happy.  

Trip wire?  Fuses?  I'm not bothered.   I think that whole little thing needs a little expansion anyway.

Ammo boxes in towns - I don't think they are required - you can manage fine without them - but they will help a little with inventory for mines and also help improve the look and feel.    May not be worth it given the lag constraints.

Border towns being occupied by the other side if garrison dead, jeep patrol dead and your own chopper (to spot it) alive?   Very nice idea, we like that.

Now, the biggie, starting the war.    Having slept on it I believe this needs a rethink.    I don't think that trashing a convoy in its own area should (in all likelihood) start the war.    I agree that it should make a war more likely - it increases tension - but not as likely as is currently the case.    

Why?   Two reasons.   First the player reason:  you don't know it will start the war.  It isn't what you expect.  From my current playing the way the mission is currently set up you are told (obliquely) to start the war by creating an inbalance of sides.   (I think that is a good way of starting it, as already mentioned, and I think you should develop it into a normal and reasonable way of starting the fighting.)    

Secondly, why should it?   If you wanted to trash the enemy's convoy you would do it at 3, so as to capture its contents.   If your convoy was trashed in your own area, with no warnings from your border guards, you would not necessarily assume that the other lot had done it.  (You know there are remnants of the resistance left.)

I propose a points system.   Certain acts attract points.  Get enough points and the war starts.   Something like:-

Killing a loon - 1
Destroying an armoured vehicle - 10
Clearing a border village - 20
Destroying the jeep convoy - 20
Shooting down a chopper  - 30
Destroying the trade convoy in its own area - 30
Destroying the trade convoy in the neutral zone - 100
Destroying the ammo dump in La Trinite - 100
Killing a faction leader - 100

Or something.

Do 100 points of damage to one side and the war starts.   Do 150 points in total and the war starts.     This is just a sketch at this stage, you'd need to work on the numbers and details.    (Including double counting - how many points do you get for hitting the convoy vulcan?   10? 12?  30? 42?)   I am NOT proposing a major rehash of the mission:  just a rearrangement of probabilities.   Obviously if there is a contact between the sides the war starts immediately.

In the last version the instructions were simple - go to 3 and kill a convoy and then the war will start.   That was too simplisitic and we are quite rightly getting more sophisticated.  

[hobson_matt]

Thanks for the earlier respones guys, sorry I have been really slow to reply.  I am currently at the business end of my degree, and have my finals in 3 weeks time.  To say that I am a little busy at the moment would be a major understatement!

I shall complete this mission and upload my progression, but i dont think that i will have time until I finish university now.  I also hope to start this mission again, keeping my terrain mode on normal all the way through to see if it has an impact on the floating buildings.

Thanks everyone and keep up the editing, i hope to have lots to play when i finish  

Matt