(Review Completed) [SP] Abandoned Armies

[THobson]

but how to show it to a player who simply blasts the soldiers as soon as he sees them, and then thinks, 'oh well, another bang-bang-shootemup mission' ?

I don't know if any of you enjoy cooking. I do sometimes and what really gets me is, you spend ages deciding on what to make, choosing all the bits, putting them together, cooking them, laying them out and the the family comes in and it is all gone without a second thought.  I felt like that when I was puting together these convoys - the player will never see what is going on here and without it being contrived I am not sure they ever will.  But in a way it doesn't matter.  If people have fun that is fine and I hope that the behaviour of the convoys is sufficiently dynamic that if they player does somethign different they should respond appropriately, but even there I have some problems.  If a convoy detects an enemy then onboard infantry gets out and deals with it.  Once the enemy is dealt with the infantry get back in and continue on the their journey.  There are two things that hide this: 1. if the enemy is the player then once dealt with he will not see what follows; and 2. Before the infantry can respond the APC of the Vulcan will have usually done it for them.  But should I bother about that.  I have tried to make each behave realistically and then just left them to it.  As a result I hope that if the player does something totally unusual then he will get an approriate response without me having to predict that behaviour.

Anyway.  Thanks for your feedback and support on this.

dmakarta:
I wondered what was keeping you

[macguba]

I think this is a case where some designers notes in the Briefing are a good idea.     Fragori is right, this is a mission which should be savoured rather than blasted through as I did.  (Although I blasted for beta testing purposes, knowing most would savour.   I'll be savouring next time.)     However, anything happening in the mission to encourage the savouring is likely to spoil the taste.     Why not just be blunt about it and say somewhere.  "Just take your time.   This one isn't really about Objectives."

The alternative is to have more of a treasure hunt:  instead of getting sent to the lodge you get sent to a village, then somewhere else and so on.    Doesn't have to be cutscenes - you could find a note or something on a body.

Another thought is to change the Vigny situation so that you can't get a proper weapon.    (Have the guards drive off as the player arrives perhaps.)    The more the player has to wander around without a proper weapon the better.   Up to a point anyway.   If all you can do is watch, then you have to watch.      Actually as I think about it more .....

Right, what we are trying to do (in this discussion) is make sure the player appreciates the island.   In particular, we (or rather, THobson the author  ;D) doesn't really want it to feel like an ordinary mission.   Nor do we want people to play it like an ordinary mission.     I did, and I did partly because I could.    There was a nice little sequence of objectives and clues.    Go to Vigny, shoot the guards and take their guns, go to the lodge and get a squad with light weapons, collect civvies to complete the squad then raid 3 to kit them out.      We need to break this sequence up.

In particular, the information that 3 is a trading post should come much later.     Maybe from a prisoner who joins your side?    He could be a straggler or deserter rather than having to pick him up after a battle.     The point is that, like most missions (and I've mentioned it before in the context of this one) the plot is all front loaded.    It would be better if if appeared more gradually.    There is no point in this mission where you are sitting around wondering "what I am supposed to do next", and there should be.       (I do mean "Hmmm, what I am supposed to do next?" and not the more familiar "Holy crap this mission is shite.  What the fuck am I supposed to do now?")

In summary:  due to the nature of the excellent plot, this looks like an ordinary mission.    Keep the plot - improving it as necessary - but somehow make the mission look less like an ordinary mission.

[dmakatra]

README:
Now that's a whole lotta text... that I'm going to ignore. ;D
OVERVIEW:
That is a nice overview. Although I didn't really catch the text. Y'wanna clarify it or something maybe.
INTRO:
Nice intro, I didn't like the Custom Text though. Too big (low-tex text) and that must've been the ugliest colour you could find.
BRIEFING:
My suggestion? Scrap the briefing. He's a civvy! There's no realism here. Besides, most of the information that's in the briefing has allready been told in the intro and the information that has not been told can easily be told by adding out some stuff in the intro. Might even a bit of MapAnim or something.
MISSION:
Make a boat return for the island, so it looks like I've been dropped off. You don't need an addon, just use a russian or NATO boat, they could've stolen it.
W00t! Blast you! Gimme back my 4x dammit! ;D
OK, that's starting to annoy me now... Gimme my 4x!! Don't make me change it manually with DePBO! ;D
Do a playmove/switchmove instead of a setdammage. You can clearly see you used a setdammage now since the girl was all bloody. Maybe a combined playmove/switchmove with a setdammage 0.6 or something.
Singing in the rain
Oh, Singing in the rain
What a glorious jeep
And no 4x dammit
Singing in the rain
I'm not playing cadet but are those n00bies having GPS? First of all, that sucks because a civvie should be the last one to carry one. And this I reckon is a mission where you get something out of knowing these islands better than your own pocket. I grew up with these islands, they're my childhood homes.
"My friend, let us kill them all together" - Now THAT is going to stay in my quote collection for ever! ;D
WTH is choppers doing in the air at this weather? They'd be lucky if they didn't crash into their own nostril hair.
Way I figured it, there's bound to be a lot of traffic on the La Trinite road, although I waited for half an hour and didn't meet any. :-\
Fuck it, let's just blow up La Trinite instead.
Bam, bam, bam! This is fun! ;D Oi, lunch's ready! Finnish later.

:beat: *Gets Shot* :beat:

OMG, they got totally raped, seriously. Must've taken out a whole platoon with my 6G-30 alone. ;D Not to mention when I started to play with LAWs. Alltogether must've taken out 40-50 men + 2-3 APCs or something. I lost my entire squad of five others, but hey, nothing's free. ;D
I ran around shooting some things, but when I got to the last civillians (those closest to Vigny) the res guy was dead and the objective ticked off even though the civis just stood there! They didn't even join me! :-\
Fair enough, I'm off with two to kill some generals. ;D
Stamonov down, one to go.
OK, killed both generals, cleared all towns, blowed up all four fuel stations and rescued all civvies (if you count them in the bug). Now what? Objectives won't tick off, whadya mean kill both armies? You want me to run around and kill every little wanker on the whole island? That's insane! ENDMISSION cheat.
Quite pleased with my score.
http://dmakatra.mine.nu/yabb/filer/files/AA.gif
http://dmakatra.mine.nu/yabb/filer/files/AA2.gif
http://dmakatra.mine.nu/yabb/filer/files/AA3.gif
Oh, and forgot to mention. You might want to, when the sun comes up, quickly remove the fog. The red sunrise and the night with thick fog is very atmospheric, but I was sick and tired of being shot through the fog for the 10985th time when the sun came up.
OUTRO:
None.
SUMMARY:
Very good mission. Like a combo between that Partisian campaign I think it's called (the never-ending one) and un-imposs mission. I like it. Kinda slow in the start, you have to come up with something to fix that, like, ehm, ENABLE 4x speed?! ;D
This mission has a very good atmosphere and the world seems very much alive, especially driving through La Trinite. There must've been like a hundried bodies there at least. And not a single bush standing up.
You've inspired me for my next project btw, when Frontline Commander is done of course.
Ace!

:beat: *Gets Shot* :beat:

[macguba]

My suggestion? Scrap the briefing.

That is worthy of very serious consideration.    

[Dubieman]

dmakatra made me remember something, the overview really doesn't make sense. I "get" it, but there are two sentences that are linked together for no reason. Little grammatical error.

And the other thing I wanted to bring up...
If you're going for this "world" idea instead of a player-based mission, what do you think about trying to spread it out over several days? Use the skiptime or something to make day & night, since I doubt any rebel could overthrow an island like this in 1 day. And it could add to some of the tactics. Grab some NVGoggles and off to go hunting for some southerons... ;D

Though it could complicate things more...

[THobson]

Now there are some really neat ideas.  My intention was that the player would get to a point where they think - now what do I do?  But as I set it up that doesn't really happen.  I am doing some lowish level rescripting at the moment (improving the script that joins up groups as they take casualties, dealing with the whole end of mission thing etc.), the ideas above are some good things I can soak on while I am doing all that.

macguba:  your post takes me back to what was my original intent.  My question though  is - how much of you view is because of the journey of discovery and the experience of playing the mission for a while?  I did have a concern that if I posted a mission with a short overview and briefing, shite weapon, no weapon load out and bugger all by way of pointers as to what to do, people would just turn off.  As it turns out I think my 'pointers' are a bit too strong.

I have re-written the overview and the briefing.  I will check it again to see if it contains more than could be expected for a young civilian being sent off on a short trip to find his uncle

dmakatra:

that must've been the ugliest colour you could find.

I liked it :'(

You can clearly see you used a setdammage now since the girl was all bloody.

I thought that was okay - she has just been shot.  I will add that to the list of things to be looked at.

Might even a bit of MapAnim or something.

Now there is a good thought.  It fits with a suggestion macguba made that I like but have not been able to do anything about yet and that is showing the offshore island I have supposedly just come from.  The list grows.

I'm not playing cadet but are those n00bies having GPS? First of all, that sucks because a civvie should be the last one to carry one. And this I reckon is a mission where you get something out of knowing these islands better than your own pocket. I grew up with these islands, they're my childhood homes

If you have GPS I didn't give it to you. I might be misunderstanding your point.

Way I figured it, there's bound to be a lot of traffic on the La Trinite road, although I waited for half an hour and didn't meet any.

Oh dear.  If you waited that long there could be a problem.  Let's say you might have just missed the south convoy heading for Chapoi,  15 mins there, a bit of turnaround time and 15 mins back.  They should be with you soon.  If you are south of Dourdan you should also get 2x jeep patrols in the same time frame so a 30 minute quiet period there would be a serious problem.

[ACF]

Re: the SkipTime idea :

Having an option to use the radio or an action to skip an hour at a time to bring on your chosen weather is one of those things players can use or ignore so it should please everyone; or at least not offend everyone.

Suggestion two's a little more off-the-wall but offered anyway: you could, say, skiptime a minute every minute to give a 12 hour game 'day'. (Yes, I have been daft enough to experiment with the concept.)

[THobson]

All ideas are good.  Thanks.

GRK I just notice your post above - you must have been posting when I was.

The overview is completely re-written.  As macguba said in his firts post - It might just get away with being a little longer!

I had hoped that the mission would take days - without skiptime!!

Anyway, pelase keep these ideas coming.  I am doing some rather basic stuff at the moment while all these ideas mull around.

[macguba]

I think skiptime is a bad idea here.    I've played "realtime" missions where it was used, sometimes well and sometimes badly, but I think the essence of this mission - the real world idea - precludes its use.     There's no point in banning 4x time but allowing skiptime for instance.

Turning to briefings, pointers and clues, yes in the original I think they were too strong.    It is true that you have to beat stupid players over the head to make them understand what they are supposed to do, but the stupid people will not be playing this one anyway.     I think we'll need to wait for the next version and see how it plays.   Don't try to make it perfect btw - there is bound to be a third version anyway, so don't kill yourself getting every detail right.    

[dmakatra]

I updated the post with the rest of my thoughts. Look above.

If you have GPS I didn't give it to you. I might be misunderstanding your point.
Nah, was just wondering if the dudes playing cadet mode were allowed GPS. Sorta ruins the atmosphere IMO.

Oh dear.  If you waited that long there could be a problem.  Let's say you might have just missed the south convoy heading for Chapoi,  15 mins there, a bit of turnaround time and 15 mins back.  They should be with you soon.  If you are south of Dourdan you should also get 2x jeep patrols in the same time frame so a 30 minute quiet period there would be a serious problem.
Nah, I was north of La Trinite. I set up an ambush and started reading C++ for about 20-30 minutes, but nothing happened. As soon as I entered La Trinite though, that's one HELLUVA welcome party. ;D

Oh, and yea, I'd like to see westies carrying AKs and easties carrying M16s, it'll look like they really scavanged the place.

:beat: *Gets Shot* :beat:

[Pilot]

Ok, after reading this thread for the past 2(?) weeks, I have decided, what the hell, I'll give it a try.  It will probably take me the longest time to complete this mission, so be patient with me.  At first I tried this mission with ECP, but apparently I ran into the savegame bug :'(, so I have restarted without it.

Ok, first off:
CPU: 1992.5 MHz
Benchmark: 2994

Now that that's out of the way:
Intro:
I liked it, I thought the text color fit the mission quite well.

Briefing:
I liked this, too.  There was plenty of neccessary info, and I especially liked the talking in the briefing.  Although I belive removing the briefing would add to the atmosphere.

Mission:
Ok, I start out and run up the mountain as fast as I could.  In the process I get lost (please don't laugh too hard ;D), ran around trying to get my bearing, found the town, and rescued Tatyana.  Cutscene, Tatyana died, damn, so much for the rescue part.  Kill the enemy group after 2-3 tries, forget the NVG's , and stash as many weapons as I could in the jeep.  I then attempt to drive over to the cabin.  Guess what, yep, I get lost again (yeah, this mission will take me awhile ).  I meet up with my new pals, stash the weapons from the jeep into the ammo box, and put 2, 4, and 5 in the ruins.  The only person I'm going to bring along is 3, as my superb leadership skills will only get the rest killed .  At this point I decide to call it a night, as it's getting late. (yeah, I know, I haven't gone too far), I will try some more tommorrow, and will respond accordingly.

Opinions so far:
I really like the way the town looked, with the buildings, fences, bushes, ect destroyed.   This really convinced me that something pretty shitty happened here.  I was also amazed at the attention of detail inside the building, with the bottles every where.  I also like dmakatra's suggestion, to give west soldiers AK's, and east soldiers M16s.  I like not having 4x speed, it seems to add to the mission.  I am enjoying this mission already, and can't wait to start making some serious assaults against both sides.

EDIT:
One thing I forgot to mention.  I like the rain!  It is much better than the default OFP rain! (The rain is custom, right? )

[Dubieman]

I think its reg OFP rain.

And don't worry about going slow, it can take extraordinary large amounts of time to find something and not get lost along the way.

I know I did a couple times...okay 15 maybe... ;D

Haven't played this much, since its all waiting. Maybe I'll let it soak and see if anything turns up. Though I don't trust my teammates to spot much in their tanks.

[THobson]

dmakatra:

Oh, and yea, I'd like to see westies carrying AKs and easties carrying M16s, it'll look like they really scavanged the place.

Neat idea.

I am glad you didn't have any convoy problems - it took me months to get them working and I am still sensitive to them going wrong.

EDIT:
Just read your post - you don't hang about that's for sure!  Several of the problems you mention are already fixed, or are about to be.  Thanks for your comments.

You've inspired me for my next project btw

There is not much praise better than knowing someone else feels inspired to do something similar, thanks

 

when Frontline Commander is done of course

So I should look out for it about the time we are all playing OFP 3 then.



@Sudent Pilot:
Welcome.  GRK is correct the rain is standard OFP stuff.  The waiting GRK refers to is the end of the mission.  It can take ages for the last loons to turn up.  This is something I am now working on - probably this weekend.

[GI-YO]

another small update from the slowest player in the world! Drove my jeep into a tree near the northron base, so jogged into la trinete to fetch the repair truck and encountered two russian NVG officers who i dispatched without even aiming, they both ran near to me and then ran away so i could see the whites in their eyes, progress of sorts at last. I grab the truck and head to my jeep, fix it and then mark the trucks pos on my map for future reference. seems the fog is clearing up !!!! Yippie! ;D. more soon.

(and a quick question - I have taken inspiration from this mission and am trying to build a similar whole map war thing and am wondering how you get the jeep patrols to act as they do, i have a jeepMG and a BRDM in a patrol and when they are attcked the cargo hop out and then the jeep just carries on and doesnt let them board again. Your jeep patrols hop out and then hop back in again once the coast is clear, this is the effect im looking for. thanks) - (if its a top secret code or you don't want to share then i will understand)

GI-YO

[THobson]

Not top secret: My jeeps are placed as empty units.  The crew for all the jeeps in a single patrol are all in the same group.  Each crew member is explictly MoveInGunner/Driver/Cargo.  I did it this way when I used probability of presence to vary the number of jeeps in each patrol - in fact I think that applies to the version being tested here.

I suspect that not using empty jeeps but making the cargo loons part of the same group would also work in the way want, but I may be wrong I have not tested that.