(Review Completed) [SP] Abandoned Armies

[Mikero]

@Xcess

apologies. I misread your first post.

Making them lose morale etc is an excellent idea. Sorry about that. I thought you were talking about their ai.

Now I'll shut up, I'm off up that cliff again,

Hi HO hi ho...

where'z my pillz

[Fragorl]

=> Mikero

My X800XT might have something to say about that comment of yours

[THobson]

Planck:

Well.....I think this woman is a blonde, the one in Houdan was.....I think dark haired.
But my memory might be faulty.

I'll check.

Mikero:
I didn't know saves etc. could be prevented.  I will see what I can do on this.

Fragorl:
You are right it is not a single script that does the damage - but the TrannsferFlag script does enough damage on top of everything else that it becomes a killer.  I actually put this in v1.20 and I think you are playing v1.21  (in 1.20 once the wolves start howling they don't stop - in v 1.21 they do).  There are 33 instances of the TransferFlag script running and it has the following loop:

Code: [Select]

#wait
~11.11
if (alive _carrier) then {goto"wait"}Changing this to :

Code: [Select]

@ not(alive _carrier)Produced a small improvement.

Changing it to :

Code: [Select]

exitProduced a further small improvement.


Mikero (again):

This is now an unusual scenario and I am interested in how it will play out.  Both leaders are dead and (I think) a relatively small amount of damage done to each army.  It might not be easy.  I may need to make some changes as a result of this.

for me, he's playing a fantastic play alone mode. Admittedly poor squence triggers in not collecting civilians and blah, but I started similar before I got savegame bug and I think, imho, your changes will need to be _very_ small. They might just need to be context switches of what the player has not achieved, rather than any dramatic change to game play. If we want to take on two armies by ourselves as Xcess is doing, let us

 I have made a subtle change to the way the armies behave, but will make none to the dialogue, after all if a player does it this way the people at the lodge will not know.  The second civis and Sergei might have heard some fighting and they will already comment on fighting between the north and south it in the version you are playing.  The subtle change in behaviour is one that might get them fighting each other (not the full blown all out assault), but might not.  I fear that XCess will get no help whatsoever in dealing with each army, and I also suspect that lag might make the mission unplayable.  This is the situation I referred to in the readme file.  

please keep the voiceovers IF you drive over them, rather than only if you walk over them. I prefer this in general, even at Vigny where you crippled it.

I was getting bug reports about messages for bodies they couldn't see as they drove over them.  Vigny is the only place where you only get the ‘bodies' messages if you are walking and not in a vehicle.  Now I have one trigger for all the atrocities: Bus; Barn; Truck: bodies in towns: bodies in huts, I think this is now not an issue.  I just keep moving the trigger depending on where the player is.  What should I do to un-cripple it?

sorry, the civil truck test is, you load up 2 soldiers into truck so that they occupy the front, you get in back, and there she is.

There has to be a logic explanation to this.  I just can't see it.

I don't know what you mean, Goisse is just a normal front line town  ;D

MeagLag at Medic join time. - I had not done any damage to any one that would cause the tanks to be moving. I just did all the cut scenes by sneaking around.

Reorganise script:  I need to do more work on this.  It irritates me the way they don't look at the camera and Karl usually turns his back the rude bastard.


Fragorl (again):
Gee guy if you have painful lag then heaven help the rest of us.  

I think lag is like pain, there is no absolute measure and different people have different tolerance levels.  Whenever I am suffering I think of Planck and 3 fps.

To add to the savegame bug debate:
I don't know the full technical cause of the problem, just some of the symptoms.  Save a game and go back to it without exiting OFP - usually fine.  Exit OFP and then go back in an and try to restore the save and get an error message about a missing data item.  I also have experienced that indicates that OFP keeps open any file it has ever opened in a session until the game is exited completely.

This indicated to me that the problem is not in the restore process but in the save process where data items are not saved, but providing OFP is not exited then they are still there to use.
There again I could be wrong.

EDIT:

Another 'interesting' feature of this is if you put your loons all over the map (I had some guarding the LaP crossroad with M2 Jeeps) they instantly come back to where you are  

I just re-read this.  Instantly!??  I can understand it if they started to run in your direction after the reorgainse script, but not an intant teleport.  Am I understanding this correctly?

[Mikero]

>Instant Teleport

my god, I hope I got that right. It happened 100% for sure and certain when i left 3 of them guarding LaP turn off and took civilians back to lodge (1st lot). I now only think it occured also for a re-organise. Damn, if someone asked me I'd say yes, but now not 100%  on that because with the addition of Yuri I am garanteed to use the reorganise script approx same time.

v1.23 bug

missing addon or blah

M16GrenadeLauncher.modelSpecial

This happens when i drive over the guy carrying one (relief squad of 6 coming up from LaP to Vigny).

Using Barrons upgrade102. It does not appear to affect gameplay.

noticed you took away nvg XMS guy, you rat. Also no PK at LaP, you rat.

Edit:

First Lodge Cutscene

_because_ you say 'here, let me show you on the map', and _because_ it then swings to black screen with titletext 'we need weapons', it is here that I assumed, or thought, or think, that you are now trying to show us THE map, this time with updated arrows and things.

edit edit:

this and v1.23 do not have, or they are no longer apparent, the 2nd relief squad coming diagonally to Vigny. Did you take them out, move them? Were they too close to 1st civils for comfort?

Armor no longer appears at LaP after prolonged exposure there. (I am busy busy collecting weapons, knowing I shouldn't stay this long) Has lack of flag changing caused less interest in LaP by the enemy perhaps?

[THobson]

Reorganise - They should not teleport.  I certainly don't tell them to, but given some of the things happening - who the hell knows what will happen.

missing addon or blah

M16GrenadeLauncher.modelSpecial

This happens when i drive over the guy carrying one (relief squad of 6 coming up from LaP to Vigny).

Using Barrons upgrade102. It does not appear to affect gameplay.

I built this using GB's editor upgrade.  So why the hell would there be this error?  (EDIT:  I have an idea)

noticed you took away nvg XMS guy, you rat.

There were two crew one eastand one west in that group.  I added them for effect.  I forgot that I also added NVGs etc.

Also no PK at LaP, you rat.

You wanted to have to scrabble for weapons. ;D

_because_ you say 'here, let me show you on the map', and _because_ it then swings to black screen with titletext 'we need weapons', it is here that I assumed, or thought, or think, that you are now trying to show us THE map, this time with updated arrows and things.

I understand now.

this and v1.23 do not have, or they are no longer apparent, the 2nd relief squad coming diagonally to Vigny. Did you take them out, move them? Were they too close to 1st civils for comfort?

I have made no change for this.  Purely the game engine.

Armor no longer appears at LaP after prolonged exposure there. (I am busy busy collecting weapons, knowing I shouldn't stay this long) Has lack of flag changing caused less interest in LaP by the enemy perhaps?

Almost the same point here about it being the game engine.  I have made it so the armour is more likely to come - randomly.


EDIT:
I am getting periods intense mega lag.  Each seems to be preceded by me givin one of the team some instruction and it last for several seconds.  (Mega lag = 2-3 fps - quite nippy for Planck I suppose)

[Mikero]

I have *never* had lag prior to and including the 2nd civils. There is, sometimes, rarely a little heaviness lodge -> 2nd civils.

Interestingly, and importantly, I have encountered armour in serious numbers all over the west. They never cause lag. Nowhere, west, does this occur, except and possibly Larche if a big buildup occurs, and only then after a war has started and I'm swinging back from Trinite (via Houdan Chapoi sometimes  ;D )

Lack of weapons seriously altered my game play, to the point that (while still not entirely true) I assume everything everywhere is in drastic short supply, so, before collecting 1st civils, #2 and I went to Goisse in the police jeep since it was 'on the way'. Anywhere I can grab weapons in remote areas (LaP eg) I'm onto it, including Goisse. I wont spoil the easter eggs for others.

Goisse turned into a powerful firefight (I have previously used entire squad here, but am interested in Xcess's gameplay) So just me and #2. I used the police jeep as a weapon of mass destruction, here, and also LaP and Vigny. You shortened the weapon loadout, so it's now a weapon too.

Fortunately for you Thob, there's a limit. After a certain point, crushing bodies damages the jeep to destruction. Always of course at a most inconvenient moment like when you charge a squad of seven, hit one, and stop stone motherless dead. (I find the handgun keeps me alive longer when this happens :-\)

There's an interesting bug in the engine, that if the jeep is damaged it leaks fuel, rapidly. You run out soon enough. That's not the bug. I sent #2 off in jeep to a safe place while I took on a godzilla (another story). I forgot to tell him to switch engine off. After awhile he reports low on fuel. I clean up around Goisse, get him to come back, he disembarks, and SHOOTS ME!!!!
-----
When a jeep is low on fuel, it, and it's occupant become a 4th party. You can't get anyone to board it again (except yourself) and you can only target it. It and any occupants are enemies. Or at least I'm their enemy. This is the same bug, different style, if you or your team-mates board a weakened M2 jeep. It and the team-mate, become enemy. (What sort, i don't know, because #2 after finishing me off, started firing at some tank crew)

checked this several times Thob, even waited on a countdown till I guestimated fuel was really low, #2 didn't shoot me, but retried, let jeep engine run another 30 seconds till he reported low fuel, and then, bang.
-----

Other fabulous gameplay things happened at Goisse. No sooner had I started to clean out the resident hordes (both the sentries and the patrol) than the Mosquito Jeeps arrived via the north road from airport. Another fist fight ensued.

Sorta kinda let them pass (well ok, I ran). Finally cleaned out loon count and Godzilla, T72 and Vulcan appeared (again from what seemed North road).

another swag of firefights and Barron firescripts  

Got real cunning and put mines in their path, and satchels and the kitchen sink. After this lot were dispensed with, the mosquito jeeps re-arrived same direction and by good fortune, satchels were in centre of town, which they had to pass thru. Got all four, one bang. you end up thinking, as a first time player or so, my god my god why on earth did I stick around.

Points worth mentioning, apart from the terrific game play.

ZERO lag. Not a whisker.

No flag changes . I think u should allow it from lodge onwards.

My team changed from novices to veterans (almost experts). If this was due to kill count, ok, if it was timelapse  (7:35 am), not too good.

[THobson]

My team changed from novices to veterans (almost experts). If this was due to kill count, ok, if it was timelapse  (7:35 am), not too go

It won't be just time.  There is now a lot of weight given to kills.  I think I still have a bit too much on the objectives.

No flag changes . I think u should allow it from lodge onwards.

I thought I had.  I will check.

ZERO lag. Not a whisker.

Weird - see below.


I had started the mission to test the savegame bug… so… well…. I continued.  I used a completely different tactic.  Apart from the 3 loons at Vigny it was 11:45 before they took their next casualties.  I won't tell you what I was doing all that time.

I got the war stared and then went to Dourdan - the lag was so horrendous I had to give up.  This is not playable.

I kept exiting the game and going back in - no problem with savegame bug.  One time I forgot to load fraps and since then I experienced none of the mega lag I described earlier.  What I experienced while sniping Dourdan was just ordinary common or garden stuff, just at a grotesque level.

I have introduced a bug in the recent change I made to remove some names.  If an invalid element in an array makes the whole array invalid then this will have turned off the voiceovers at all the atrocities.  If an array can survive having an invalid element then it will have only turned off the voiceover for the ‘fictional' group of civis east of LaT.  That is where I discovered the problem.

another swag of firefights and Barron firescripts

Credit where it is due.  I use General Barron's fire script only in the first scene in the Intro.  The fire embers and smoke you get when armour is killed is from Babalon.  He did all the difficult drop command stuff.  I just took that and made the fire, embers and smoke taper off over time.  

[Planck]

Well......where to start.......

I did the Vigny thing killed 3...........killed tatyanas killers........killed the squad that turned up.

Loaded up the police jeep with all the collected weapons.....minus 1 M16 which wouldn't fit, but I took its mag anyway.

Then I ran south to take a look at La Pessagne.
I needed to use their mash tent anyway, I was wounded.

I waited till the jeepmg's left, then killed the garrison.........got healed and bagged a LAW launcher.

Ran back to Vigny to my jeep then saved.

I went across country towards the lodge.....heading NNE, I passed close to the first group of civvies and was just approaching the road when one shot rang out and I was dead.
No idea who shot me OFP decided I didn't need to know.

Tried again from my save.....got shot again around about the same area, there was more than one shot this time, but the result was the same.
(I thought I was supposed to be safe in a police jeep ;D)

I took a different route the third time and got to the lodge ok.

Checked the civvy truck........it was empty no phantom passengers.
Went and got the first group of civvies, back to the lodge.......all fine.
Checked the truck again.........no phantoms.....went to get the second group of civvies.
Got there ok and off they went to the lodge.......I checked out the third group with '7'.
No voiceover when I found them dead.

Back to the lodge about the same time as the second group of civvies.
Did the reorganise team dialog thing and once I finished I had to tell '7' to get out of the truck again.
He seems to have a fixation for civvy trucks.
Checked the truck......no phantoms.

Went to Houdan, found Sergei and brought him back with me.
Checked the truck....no phantoms.

Saved again......and quit for the day.

I expect to find a phantom once I reload the game.......maybe.....maybe not.


Planck

[456820]

ah i never got round to carrying on with this mission got carried away with my campaign done a hell lot more work on it
anyway ill test his again soonish about this phantom what phantom is this ?

[THobson]

456: Well that's the thing about phantoms.  You never know.    Actually some of us are finding strange people in our truck and I cannot understand it.  I think Malden is haunted given some of the things that happen there, especially near the first civi hut.  I mean - Everon has Christmas trees at Christmas, why not ghosts in Malden?

Planck:  You have done a throrough job thanks.  That has saved me a load of time.  I have looked at the script again and can find no explanation.

I have to say I am totally fed up with this.  I have never experienced lag like it.  The war started at LaT and now I can't go near the place without everything slowing to a halt.  I had a similar thing in v1.21 where most of the fighting took place around Chapoi and I had horrendous lag there as well.  v1.10 and earlier was not a problem.
I am right am I in thinking that once a trigger is deleted it no longer contributes to CPU load?  I'll ask on the editing board.

[Planck]

Playing at 2-3 fps you never notice much lag.

I suppose when it drops momentarily to 1 fps that is the lag.   ;D ;D


Planck

[XCess]

Lag at the moment is simply terrible. 2-3fps non stop. This was since loading to go kill Stamenov. Also, I did all the lodge stuff just to get the ticks done and now the Andropov objective is un ticked.

Got myself killed out of anger when half from Chapoi to the lodge I encountered a t72 and t80, decided to open fire on the t72 with my lodge realising it would take another span of forever to get home for some medicine and banages and was obviously killed as I was firing from the rocky slopes of a mountain with no cover whatsoever.

[Mikero]

@THob

for the purpose of testing, put a crippler in that prevents war starting. You can't stop blue on blue of course. But just dont start the war, then try T3 and all the others. Lag for me only occcurs, if , war started, heavy loon count, or, armour present.

Heavy loon count alone causes no lag for me (T3 convoy eg), armour in numbers, causes no lag. Only the fact that war is happening and I suspect those choppers have a lot to answer for (try deleting them as a test eg)

By lag, I mean unplayable stuff, not heaviness.

[THobson]

XCess:

Lag at the moment is simply terrible. 2-3fps non stop. This was since loading to go kill Stamenov. Also, I did all the lodge stuff just to get the ticks done and now the Andropov objective is un ticked.

Lag I knew about, it is top of the list.  Unticking Andropov - yes that would happen - sorry I didn't think of someone playing it in that sequence, this cannot happen in v1.23

Mikero:

for the purpose of testing, put a crippler in that prevents war starting.

During testing I have done something similar.  I activated the DefendBase (end-game) script that brings everyone home (there is one for each base).  The lag is horrendous near the base when they are all there.  This is in effect what has happened with XCess.

There is no one silver bullet here, the mission has got fat and it needs some trimming - all over.

Can you guys live with it for a while?  If not I could create a skeleton mission that has all the flesh taken off (buildings in bases, environmental sounds etc.).  Just the loons and the cutscenes and some other essential stuff.

[THobson]

Xcess:
I have thought a lot about the situation you are in.  It is the one I refer to in the readme as one occurrence that would create significant lag.  I honestly thought it was not possible for the player to initiate this and live.  Congratulations - and apologies.  Congratulations for pulling off an absolutely stunning piece of play.  Surgically taking out the leaders while they still have significant forces is truly impressive.  Apologies because due to my lack of foresight you are now in a situation where all the northron units will be in or around the airbase and all the southron units will be in or around Chapoi. I expect the lag is murderous, and you will not have access to any tanks that you can HEAT them with from a distance.  I doubt the mission is playable.

Basically:  There are two ways to cause a side to enter its ‘endgame' phase. Get that side down to a specified number of loons, or kill the leader (earlier versions also had a Resistance detected by …trigger in each base - but I took that out.).  My reasoning was that once the player had killed the leader sending any remaining loons home would make for an ‘exciting time', as in deed it does.  I also felt I could justify this behaviour as being reasonably logical.

My plan now is:  Once a leader is killed then the sides will go to a state of readiness that will make fighting between them more likely (basically each side will behave as if one of them has been killed by the other side - except they will not know where any of the other side is located so fighting will not start immediately - but it will start eventually).  The endgame script that brings everyone home will start when loon count < X when the leader is alive or loon count < Y when he is dead.  Where X > Y.

The alternative is not to do anything special when the leader is killed, but that doesn't feel right.

In v1.23 I have prevented the player from approaching Andropov, Stamenov or the concentration camp before they have visited the lodge.  The alternative is to make significant optional and rarely used dialogue for the cutscene.  But there is nothing to stop the player after the mountain lodge cutscene for him to say to hell with the civilians I am going after the leaders.


Any thoughts anyone?