Realism Script - More Wounds, Less Death!

[silent_64]

Just throwing in my opinion again - seems kinda @ss-backwards to put out a new addon and state *everyone* else needs to adjust their addon to work correctly...and the end result is just eye candy - showing more gore for wounds.  As you stated, the actual combat results won't change (wounded/killed ratios) so all we are talking about is gore effects and some added medic logic?

Again, just my opinion, but I really don't care for that in the first place.  The "dead" in OFP are either truly dead or incapacitated and out of the fight...which is fine with me.  Adding more gore to the already incapacitated (and gamewise now irrelevant) units just takes away cycles and framerates that I would prefer to spend on better AI or combat/logic related scripting, or not spend at all.

I think most of the weapons are pretty well balanced so far.  The 5.56mm are taking two+ hits to incapacitate, which is right in line with the AARs coming out of Iraq.  If anything, I think the JAM 7.62 and 7.62 sniper rounds are underpowered right now.  I would certainly not use an addon that further weakens the weapons.  After all, in real life most bad guys don't wear interceptor armor, and two 5.56mm hits are going to HURT....

What would be very realistic though somewhat taxing on cycles would be bleed-out for AI, similar to the human player bleedout in the Marine Assault Pack.

Again, tap a bad guy twice with a 5.56mm and he may not drop right away, but after ten minutes+ he won't be shooting straight, if he is even still standing by then.  As many of my missions last over an hour, that would have a big effect.

Anyway, all IMHO.  The great thing about addons is everyone is free to use or not use!  

"Just" eye candy, the outcome of a battle can be changed if you just have TWO more men able to run and shoot straight, also it isn't "just" going to be eye candy, then, why do it, it's going to add a level of realism that currently isn't there.

I know it's just a game but imagine this: You and your buddies are out to destroy an enemy base, you can see the searchlights off in the distance, you and your buddy advance slowly. You're now 20 m from a week point in their defense, all of the sudden you hear the sound of a bullet hitting flesh, a blood spatter and one of your buddies go down, laying there with his hands holding his throat while making grueling sounds. As the only one with enough medical training to make a difference you hear another shot, another one of your buddies go down he's holding himself to the leg.
Now it's up to you to decide WHO to treat and how, is it better to treat the bloke with the leg wound so that he can fight again, or are you going to try and save your heavily injured buddy with the throat wound, and how to treat them, apply a field dressing? Apply pressure? Decisions decisions.

I don't think that it can ever be explained the level of detail that we've planed for this so I'm not even going to try.

[dmakatra]

Well, if a guy holds his hands at the throat or the leg you can see where he's shot. And you should add some drop [] effects with blood (especially the throat thing) and then you can see where the blood comes from. It's a bit extreme to say that everyone have to change their addons. It will maybe not work as good as in the Nightstalker Mod itself but it would work.

:beat: *Gets Shot* :beat:

[Pathy]

Its no more arse-backward than JAM....and its the same as JAM, if you dont want to participate in it, dont.
But anyone that wants to participate in it will have to add the neccessary hidden selections to thier units. Hidden selections arent exactly hard to do, so, maybe its something that the next releases of units could incorporate, just as new weapons after JAM was released encorporated JAM.

Unless of course, you dont want the nice touches?

But im sorry mate, it might be your opinion, but there is no other logical way that things like hidden selections work. As for a waste of CPU, that is again up to you. You also dont seem to get the point of reducing weapon power. If youd read the posts, youd have noticed a) that this will only happen after we test it, and need to find a better balance (so it might not happen at all) and b) you think that reducing weapon power is going to reduce deaths? Depends how good a medic you are.

Oh and if its all window dressing, i guess you dont like ECP either.....

I assure you this is a whole lot more than window dressing. As Silent_64 described, its adding a WHOLE dimension to the game, finally playing as medic will be worthwhile, the choices you make the balance between life and death. And plus it limits the really annoying "one flick of a medics wrist and your right as rain" system that operates with BIS medics.

Anyhow, yeh its no more extreme than JAM, but if public opinion comes across that they'd prefer not to have to have units enabled, we will oblige. After all we aim to please.

Oh and, yeh, silent 64's final line is right, it takes me about 1 hour to explain it to someone over MSN in full....

[Pathy]

Oh just had a thought. Perhaps its scaring you that you would end up with units with all these hidden selections not being used with the script....well they are hidden, so, unless the command goes out to show them..........

[Kammak]

Calm down, just a discussion.  No need to get all defensive.  

First - What you have described is NOT like JAM.  JAM adds functionality (interoperability) only, and reduces developer time for future addons by providing common ammo types.  Nothing gets "broken" by not adapting an addon to use JAM ammo.  It was posted here twice that this new addon you are working on would most likely require existing weapons to be rebalanced to work with your addon...which is not the same as JAM.

One adds functionality, the other requires all preexisting weapons to be re-worked so that the new addon doesn't appear "broken".  See the difference?

Of course I understand about the hidden selections, and yes that requires an updated config.  That's not my point.  The issue is requiring all existing weapons be rebalanced so the new addon performs correctly.

You stated the existing weapons need to be reduced so there aren't as many kills, so that your medic logic and gore effects have a chance to be shown.

Unless you are playing as a medic, the only effect on gameplay is added gore...eyecandy.  (Unless you are actually changing wound/kill ratios as well - see below.)

As I consider the existing medic abilities to be a crutch for the crowd migrating from run-and-gun games, I don't ever use medics in the first place.  So further reducing weapon lethality and making medics even more powerful has no interest *to me*.

One thing that is confusing is first it was stated that your addon effects would not change the wounded/kill ratio, but above you state that it may mean the difference of having two more guys alive in a mission?  So which is it?  Does it increase the ability of the medic to recover what would normally be incapacitating wounds, or is just gore effects and some added medic logic that, if chosen incorrectly, would actually increase the incapacitation rate?

Again, anything that further lowers the lethality of wounds *I* would consider a step backwards, and not reflective of real world experiences being reported as we type.  But no biggie, it just means I won't use the addon.  That's the joy of the system.

No need to go defensive or self-righteous, just expressing an opinion on a topic up for discussion.

Relax and have fun making your addon!  

[Pathy]

I dont really have toime for this ATM, but no effect on gameplay? Cmon, one bad hit and your out of the game with this system.....i call that quite a change

[dmakatra]

Pathy, I didn't mean to upset you but I mean what I was saying. Sure, people could change their addons if they want to but, seeing a guy having a fragment in the leg is nothing that is ABSOLUTLEY nessesary, even though it would add a lot. And I do not see what's the stuff about reducing weapon damage is about. Like I said before it could be done so more easy with a simple Eventhandler.

:beat: *Gets Shot* :beat:

[Pathy]

You havent upset me in any way mate.
Yes, and we are now going to use an event handler for damage. Which is why im so perplexed at this guy arguing like this addons is going to be Satans work........

Now this guy doesnt seem to read my posts at all, or if he does its in a way that suits him. No need to get defensive? Well when you are blatantly ignoring the facts, i cant have someone coming in here and seeing what you think is correct, when it isnt, and taking THAT as fact.

So lets get it straight.

WEAPONS WILL NOT BE CHANGED. If youd read all the post rather than selectively reading what you wanted to hear, youd know this

You stated the existing weapons need to be reduced so there aren't as many kills, so that your medic logic and gore effects have a chance to be shown.

.
Well yes, whats the point of making the addon if every shot kills? The last posts say where we came to a solution, we can do this all via script, no need to change every weapon. And the only discussion of weapons being changed was saying NIGHTSTALKER MOD WEAPONS MAY NEED TO BE CHANGED. Not every weapon in the community.

Now, changing units. Well, yes, if you want the hidden selections to work properly, Units WILL need to be enabled for that. No argument about that. But then i left an open question, "would you be prepared to do that?".

The Real Armstrong gave me an answer, that we should save those touches for the mod.
You on the other hand just moaned. And moaned. And moaned. If you actually have any suggestions to make, be it constructive critisism or just suggestions, they are welcome. But all ive seen you doing is telling us how crap this system is going to be in your opinion. Sorry, but thats not a debate i want here. Either help us or stop wasting mine and everyone elses time.

This is not the place for that discussion.

Next, you are absolutely convinced this is eye candy.

Unless you are playing as a medic, the only effect on gameplay is added gore...eyecandy.  (Unless you are actually changing wound/kill ratios as well - see below.)

Tell me, how the hell is adding another level to the gameplay "eye candy". This system is designed to bring the realism of warfare closer than ever before.

Again, anything that further lowers the lethality of wounds *I* would consider a step backwards, and not reflective of real world experiences being reported as we type.  But no biggie, it just means I won't use the addon.  That's the joy of the system.

Again you obviously havent read the system. Its designed to increase realism. In real life most people dont just keel over and die. Some get shot and bleed to death, some die instantly, but there are also usually many more critically wounded than dead.

Are you trying to tell me a system that replaces medics ability to instantly and miraculously heal someone at deaths door is LESS realistic? Mate, actually bother to read how the system will work (see page one, last post)
because I dont think you understand also why weapons must be reduced (and anyway, we wont know if we DO need to reduce damage until we actually test it). Its not about reducing lethality. Its about reflecting the real life situation. In real life, people dont die instantly from 2 shots to the leg. Reducing weapon lethality (via scripts may i add, before you blow a gasket) means that in OFP they wont either. It merely allows us to execute a script that more closely mimics real life, that is, say, the guy could end up with Femoral bleeding and die within a minute. Infact, we could reduce weapon power to almost nothing and still run an accurate real life simulation. But that seems way over your head.......

Infact reading back what you say, i dont think you even realise this is basically an advanced bleed out script with added effects...

If you dont like the addon, dont download it, but i dont want you in this thread spamming it up with unhelpful comments. To that end, i will not argue with you any further, so either say something actually helpful, even if it is critisism, or say nothing at all please.

And this isnt really a place for discussion over the merits of it, unless im mistaken i thought it was a place for discussing the script itself.......

[Kammak]

Again, relax and have fun making your mod.

I think I've sensed an age gap here, so I won't bother replying to your points.  When you are a little less tense, go back and read this thread in whole sometime, and hopefully you will be able to understand it better.

BTW - putting words into someone else's mouth is a really bad way to get your point across.  But you'll figure that out in time too.

Enjoy your game.  

[Pathy]

I am not tense mate, and you show your immaturity by trying to make it personal (which is ironic given the "age gap" comments intent).

I stand by everything ive said, YOU my freind need to a)start reading posts and getting your facts straight b) start contributing to threads. Instead of just coming in and saying, "in my opinion, this addon will be a waste of time (ie crap)".

That is NOT a helpful comment. Incase you didnt realise, this is a thread for discussing the script. Not for OFP.INFO comment board style spamming of addons.

IE, that means, make a comment that is helpful or not at all. Im quite glad you havent bothered replying to my points, mainly because i asked you not to. But this is not a discussion on how crap this addon is. Its for constructive talk.

Keep it constructive please.

PS, oi how bloody cheeky is this  ;D

go back and read this thread in whole sometime, and hopefully you will be able to understand it better.

Ive just been telling YOU to go back and read the whole thread. And given the number of mistakes you made in your argument i think i have grounds to say that (ie, thinking that weapons would have to be modified when we dismissed that issue before your post, the fact that you are convinced this is just eyecandy despite an indepth explanation of what it would actually do.....ect)

Anyway, yeh, bloody cheeky considering we are talking about MY concept (the idea of this script was mine, even if i cant script for cookies... ), and you are telling me that i dont understand it. Mate, i think i understand the issues surrounding my brainchild.

Now go off and play.

[Planck]

If I might interject a little here.

Whilst Kammak has made it plain that he isn't really overwhelmed by this idea, he has not been overly hostile to it and has been adding to this discussion.

You see I have read the whole thread so far.

Kammak has not been hostile to my mind, which cannot be said for some others.

If useful and constructive only means agreeing with what is being said then I have my ideas all wrong.

I always thought that negative comments also constituted constructive criticism.

Just because someone does not see things the same way others do, does not mean they are being hostile.

Totally of topic.......but what the heck........everyone else is doing it.



Planck

[Pathy]

And attempting to get back on topic.

Ok so,
Nightstalker Version
-area specific wound types each with own anims, sounds, effects, and bleed out rates.
-Hidden selections used for some FX, eg, blood on medics hands, scratches on face.....
-Medical treatments for each wound type each with its own anims, sounds ect....
-Each soldier has the ability to apply pressure to a wound and slow damage done. But not to heal the wound.
-Medic has ability to heal wounds, through a custom medic menu. Selection of the wrong treatment will not be good for the pateint  ;D .
-Treatments carry a risk factor depending on how complicated the procedure is, the skill of the medic, ect
-Successful treatments leads to one of 3 things, a gradual deteriation of the patients condition, stabalisation, or slow improvement, depending on the seriousness of the wound.

Required: hidden selections on the units. The scripts, sounds and anims......Nothing else.

Public version. Same, except for removes the hidden selections, meaning only the addon is needed.

Sound good?

[Pathy]

Planck mate, there is a difference between him saying "nah that wouldnt work very well, do it like this" (thats called constructive critisism, example, The Real Armstrong suggesting using an event handler to change damage) and saying "thats gonna be total crap, im not downloading it" (his approach, example, saying that changing every gun in the game is total wank and not offering a solution).

Anyway, i dont want a discussion on this, i want a discussion on the script


Oh one more thing, this is what perplexes me and makes me wonder just how far he reads the thread
One moment he says:

Again, tap a bad guy twice with a 5.56mm and he may not drop right away, but after ten minutes+ he won't be shooting straight, if he is even still standing by then.  As many of my missions last over an hour, that would have a big effect.

Which is basically what our system will do. The next minute hes saying that our system has no real effect and is totally pointless. That is why i think he hasnt read the thread well enough to realise exactly what this script is.....

[Dubieman]

What kind of procedures are included? Blow up pants for pressure, ace bandages, curlex, clamping arteries, needles, IVs, morphine, and etc....

And should all these options be avaiviable, a new menu should be made. I don't want to going down the action menu between reload M16 and reload needle...

 

And some ppl shouldn't take any of this crap personally, its a forum for talk on a realism script to make medics and injuries more lifelike. I know some ppl want to come and smooth over disputes but let moderators or themselves solve it. Lets stick to the topic and let the ppl fight it out. Don't you like to watch? :tomato:

[Sui]

*cough*

* Sui quietly walks into the thread and leans his 'KEEP IT CIVIL, GODDAMMNIT!' stick in the corner